1. The KillerFrogs

Kyler Murray signs with A's, will QB Sooners this fall

Discussion in 'Scott Nix Frog Fan Forum' started by TopFrog, Jun 16, 2018.

  1. mcshay and kiper are paid to create conversation about the draft and have no accountability for what they say or than to their bosses who want traffic and the public who have incredibly short memories.

    i agree with wex in that murray is going to measure shorter than optimal height and he doesn't have a big arm
     
  2. That's not easy to answer. He probably can make every throw, I think every QB on an NFL roster can make every throw, but the weaker the arm strength the harder it is and the more open the receiver has to be. And I know I keep bringing up the hand size thing, but I think it's a huge deal that kind of goes under the radar. Russell Wilson and Drew Brees have larger hands than Matthew Stafford, Matt Ryan, Cam Newton, and Carson Wentz. In other words, those two are kind of physical freaks. I don't know, maybe KM does too, but I highly doubt it just by his build. Everything about him looks short and tiny.

    He mostly operates in wide open spaces in college so that isn't nearly as important. It's just a different ballgame in the NFL. I get a kick out of Kiper supposedly saying he's the best dual-threat QB prospect he's ever seen. Well, there is no such thing as a dual threat NFL QB, with some small apologies to 250 lb Cam Newton. 240 lb LBs that run 4.5 fortys and $25M contracts will do that.
     
    Eight likes this.
  3. Not sure who you're replying to (assuming I have the guy on ignore), but I'm curious to know Moose's thoughts on Kyler's arm. I was always under the impression he was a 4.5 tool guy in baseball and the 1/2 tool was hitting for average. He's got the power, speed, glove, and arm from CF. If he's got a plus arm for baseball I'm not sure why people seem to think he's got a mediocre arm for football. I've seen nothing to demonstrate his arm isn't excellent.
     
    netty2424 likes this.
  4. This is a key to me - there is no minor leagues in nfl, he is playing minor league football now

    If he gets drafted, he goes straight to the show in football vs fighting through the minors in baseball

    I know he might not start in Low A but he won’t be playing in Oakland day 1 either

    I can see him taking a shot at nfl to see if he can be good enough after being a high draft pick since most likely he will know in a year or two one way or another vs potentially fighting through the minors for twice that long
     
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  5. I don’t think you’ll find too many people (if anyone) who would say he has a plus baseball arm. Football arm strength and baseball arm strength often don’t correlate though. John Elway didn’t throw a baseball nearly as well as a football from what I’ve been told. Former TCU QB Leon Clay could throw the hell out of a football and had a hard time getting it to 2B from RF in the air.
     
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  6. Caught just a brief segment on TV today where Kuiper disagreed with McShay on him being a first rounder.
     
  7. Nothing to do with arm strength, but didn’t the Rangers once have a pitching coach who had his pitchers throwing footballs during warmups? Seems like I was just a kid at the time, so my recollection is pretty vague.
     
  8. I'll just say that in terms of baseball, there were questions about Murray's arm heading into last year's draft.

    His arm apparently didn't look that great when he played baseball last spring.

    There was the suggestion that perhaps he had arm fatigue when he was playing baseball, and also maybe too bulked up, and that his baseball arm might improve if/when he stopped playing football.

    I'll note, Murray's arm is his lowest rated tool of his five tools (hit, power, run, arm, fielding) on MLB Pipeline.
     
    netty2424 likes this.
  9. #149 FBallFan123, Dec 5, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
    Tom House....

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. i agree again with wex in saying it simply isn't a matter of saying he doesn't have the arm strength to throw an nfl out or deep seam routes.

    it is more a matter of does he have the arm strength to consistently make throws against nfl defensive backs. this question is comparable to when we have a great college basketball scorer who when they play in the nba suddenly can't get open against nba players.

    wex has done a great job in other posts making the point that murray is going into almost every game with a talent advantage and in the ou offense with their run game it is damn near impossible for most college defenses to scheme to stop murray throwing the ball because of the run game. additionally this is his first year starting so who had any film on him?

    that changes in a few weeks. bama has the talent, the time, and the coaching staff. a bad game doesn't mean he couldn't make it anymore than a great game means he is a lock. mayfield looked clueless in the first half last week against the texans.

    i also think wex makes a great point in the matter of dual threat quarterbacks in the nfl. there are a number of quarterbacks who can run, but no one who really makes their bones off running and in the young quarterbacks we have seen a number with significant injuries already as a result of running the ball.
     
  11. What McShay said does not strike me as provocative for provocative's sake. The implication is that he's making stuff up and all decision makers in the league would laugh at him. I'm sure there are factions of the league that wouldn't want him in their system but I'd be shocked if a significant percentage of front offices weren't in basic agreement with McShay's assessment.

    He's not optimal height but I don't see the knocks on his arm. I personally think he has more arm talent, strength and accuracy than a number of starting NFL QBs and if he failed it wouldn't be simply because he's short. Try to shoe horn him into a west coast under center system with a bad o line and no weapons? Yeah he'd probably fail but the list of QBs with superior measurables that would apply to is long. Given the right right coach, system and weapons, I see no reason why his height and weight would hold that team back.

    All that said, I think he should play baseball for the earning potential. I sat pretty close at the Friday night game at Lupton last April and left thinking he had all-star potential. For what it's worth, in person I surprised at how built out he looked. He's short in QB terms, but he is not tiny.
     
  12. do you really think decision makers in the nfl wait around for mcshay and kiper's opinion on players?
     
  13. Isn’t that their schtick? Mel’s probably right though. Again..... I’m not saying he’s a first rounder or will have a great career. Just that he’s good enough to have an interesting decision looming.
     
  14. No, that was not remotely my point and not sure how you got that from what I said. Why would I think their article would influence NFL front offices? My point was that I think it plausibly reflects the sentiment among SOME talent evaluators in the NFL. They didn't just make it up out of thin air to get clicks. If he said tomorrow that he's putting off minor league ball to pursue football full time, I agree that he'd be taken in the top 2 rounds. From there, who knows?

    I agree with Moose, I don't think anyone here is arguing he's a definite All-Pro QB, no one can predict that. It would take the right situation like 99.99999% of drafted QBs. My argument since the beginning was also that the prevailing wisdom about his decision being easy because his NFL QB prospects were nil isn't true anymore because of what he's done this year.
     
    Moose Stuff likes this.
  15. You’re probably right, I haven’t really watched much of their draft coverage in recent years.

    I thought McShay portrays himself as a scout himself...even though players (like Aaron Rodgers) have amusingly criticized him about it in the past.

    I guess I thought Kuiper was more of a reporter who just relays what he hears from sources around the league.

    I could be totally wrong about that distinction.
     
  16. I don’t really know to be honest. I can tell you that the baseball equivalents of those two are worth listening to if for no other reason than they get their info from someone affiliated with a MLB team’s scouting department. Doesn’t mean they’re gonna be right, but they aren’t just winging it either.
     
  17. closest thing to murray was mike vick and vick had a much stronger arm. i will agree vick wasn't as accurate, but arm strengh isn't comparable and vick could match him in foot speed relative to his peers.vick was also a bit over 6' and over 200 lbs.

    it is all bar talk at this time by mcshay and kiper and this is what we have seen in every sport from espn. take a story with some basis and blow it way out of proportion.

    you are getting more and more push from veterans for guaranteed money in their contracts which means if you are drafting players you damn well better be right or it will cost your team more than a draft pick if you are wrong. mcshay can say what he says because if he is wrong it isn't his job.

    there is no douby murray is an nfl athlete, but that doesn't mean he is an nfl quarterback and we have seen great college quarterbacks who didn't get the chance because they didn't fit the nfl game. even with the changes small players just don't last in that league with the brutal pounding and it would take someone like gruden who pretty much has been given full authority or a guy with nothing left to lose.
     
  18. i only see them when at the gym and it seems over the past few years they have been paired together in this same forced argument [ deposit from a bull that looks like Art Briles ] that you can find all over espn and foxsports.
     
    Moose Stuff likes this.
  19. Maybe I'm remembering a homer Sooner baseball broadcaster talking up his arm. I don't think I'm making that up in my head, but I'll take your word for it.
     
  20. There’s a definite difference between what an announcer would call a good arm and what a scout would call a good arm. Murray was seen by the majority of MLB scouts as having a below average major league arm.
     
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