FrogBall09
Active Member
Wait - you think a pro would rather hit a 185 shot from a fairway bunker over a 195 shot from the fairway?
Ok well now I know you have no idea what you are talking about…
OT - Colonial GC
- Thread starter Limp Lizard
- Start date
Ok well now I know you have no idea what you are talking about…
No, that’s not what I said. Lol.
Off the tee, they aren’t going to take a 3-wood and play away from a bunker (that doesn’t have a really steep face) that they might hit into with a driver in order to avoid it. They’ll try and push it down the fairway and risk going into the trap because it means they’ll have a 165 yard shot from the fairway if they miss the bunker. They’d rather be 165 out from the fairway than 195 out in the fairway. And a common misconception is that when you lay back or play “conservative”, youll always be in the fairway and in good position. You won’t. Because nobody is that good, even your players.
Sure, if there is a bunker that extends across the entire fairway that they can’t carry, they’ll lay back. All the time. But you rarely see those.
The strategy 9 times out of 10 is to take the widest spot between trouble they can’t escape from off the tee, aim pretty much in the middle of that spot, and get it down there as far as they can. And then deal with the next shot, which will at least be closer to the hole had they not hit driver. They don’t chase angles NEAR as much as architects want you to think because the reward usually doesn’t exceed the risk.
I don’t know, we’ll see. “More in play” is a little subjective. More than what, and how much more? Those holes don’t “look” a lot more interesting to me, and not near as interesting as they could be (especially 8 and 16) but that’s just me.
Like I said, if they want higher scores they can make the greens hard as a rock, that’ll do it without changing anything else.
You’re a member, right?
Not really. In some cases, sure, to a degree. I don’t think they are aiming away from many bunkers at Colonial. They never really did before, and I doubt they do now. Every shot and situation is different but generally fairway bunkers don’t change the approach much at all.
Putt4Purple
Active Member
One more time! YOU don’t know what they think. No golfer ever aims for hazards, or trouble. Please stop! Your hurting yourself!
Putt4Purple
Active Member
So far Colonial holding firm even without wind. -4 as of 1:18 today Thursday.
That does not look like an easy course to play Wexahue! Just saying. Now let’s hear you pontificate on why this is happening?!?! Oh my! I can’t wait!
That does not look like an easy course to play Wexahue! Just saying. Now let’s hear you pontificate on why this is happening?!?! Oh my! I can’t wait!
FrogBall09
Active Member
and a former pro golfer after playing at TCU....so always intrigued with insights of others...
They don’t aim for them. They just don’t aim away from them. I’m talking fairway bunkers, they obviously play more away from water, for obvious reasons.
When they get on the tee from a strategic standpoint, it’s almost like they don’t exist.
Take #18 at Valhalla last week. There was a fairway bunker down the left side of the fairway and water down the entire right side. The long hitters that could get to that trap aimed right at it anyway. They might have tried to move it left to right just a touch but the fact that the trap was there didn’t change strategy at all. If that would have been rough instead of sand their aiming point would not have changed, and they’d have still tried to cut it a little, at least the ones comfortable enough with that shot. Basically zero golfers got on that tee box and said I want to make sure I don’t go into that trap.
FrogBall09
Active Member
nobody aimed at the fairway bunker without the intention moving the ball away from it last week - but if your point is that the lesser of two evils is to go in the bunker if the ball doesn't fade or if you over cook a draw vs trying to hit a "straight" ball up the middle that you overcook or worse a draw that starts over the water and doesn't hook - then yes, you will aim at the bunker and try to work the ball away from it into the center.
That doesn't mean in any way a pro golfer doesn't care that the bunker is in play - because as we saw, while X made an amazing shot on 18, if that ball finished where he has one foot in and one foot out of the bunker - he is going to a playoff and Bryson probably wins the PGA Championship.
What you are majorly missing in all of this is that there is one thing in addition to a hazard that a pro wants to avoid and would prefer a fairway or greenside bunker over almost all the time - and that is real rough. Way too much unknown in what lie you will get, how solid of contant, the effect of the grass, if you can get any spin, etc.. So the idea of removing bunkers that can catch an errant shot off the tee or around a green does not make a hole play easier. I would rather have a ball sitting in the bottom of a bunker 9 times out of 10 than in 4" of 419 bermuda that has seeded up after a week long tournament. So removing bunkers or pushing them away from greens, along with creating less "circular" bunkers that have more side and up/down lies in pockets is considerably harder than the old, mostly eliptical bunkers we had that were right next to greens. I am an old man that can't keep up with guys like Tank, Vasquez, James, etc or even Elliott Barzilli - who hits it a country mile - much less Ryan Palmer. But even I can still get the ball up and down the majority of the time from a relatively flat lie in a shallow bunker with "no fried egg" sand like we had before. Take that same shot but out of 3+" of seeded bermuda - and its anyones guess where the ball is going or how hard to hit it. And 10x that from the fairway 180 yds out.
Putt4Purple
Active Member
What you’ve stated is what I already have in your first two paragraphs. I’m teaching you remember this.
Don’t preach about individual approach shots at Vallalha or any other course. The mental approach is the same for every golf course. YOU cannot differentiate that!
We are talking about Colonial G.C.
You are showing your obstinate ignorance to all of us.
FrogBall09
Active Member
we'll see? interesting response. If you go watch the guys struggling right now - its pretty obvious.
Here - I will make is easy to understand my point.
on 8 - from the back tees, you can't play a fade - there is a tree and big limb overhanging the left side of the green. To avoid that, especially to a back flag - you need to hit a draw. or at least a really small fade and hope for the right side. The rough on the right is thick and the green runs away from you - bad spot. You overcook your draw or pull a butter cut a little bit - both of which will easily add half a club in flight distance to your shot - and you will be begging for the ball to get down into one of the green side bunkers or it if not, then please let the bermuda rough grab it on the first bounce so you can find a way to try and hit a side hill flop shot out of 4" rough. Otherwise - it bounces into the creek.
Other than the tree limb - that same concept applies on 16 but obviously short right is not any better than left. Long right can be a bail out so expect so lots of players start it on the right side and try to bring it back. The green still runs away from you on the right side - so the rough wont be your friend with no spin, but its not nearly as much a two tier slope as it was before.
For 17 and 10 - you can't run the ball through or really even hit from the bottom of the gully anymore - its transition area on 17 and an actual creek on 10 - so if you are in the trees on either hole, the punch it hard and hope it runs up on the green shot is really high risk - expect to see more lay ups from jail this year than in the past when you had little to lose by trying to fly the gully from the trees.
I totally agree, pros would much rather play out of a trap than rough, even relatively light rough if it’s long enough to produce bad flyers. That’s why bunkers don’t scare them. Doesn’t mean they necessarily want to go into them or aim for them, it’s just that the penalty is not severe enough to worry about strategizing around them, because that often brings into play other things that drive up scores as much or worse. As for Colonials new bunkers, we’ll see if they are really that difficult to manage. I doubt it. They’ll be perfectly manicured like they always are. If there aren’t high lips or the tendency to get plugged lies, the pros will mostly ignore them and just deal with them when they have to.
I’ve always thought if you want to make a course harder for the pros but more playable for 10-15 handicaps just get rid of all bunkers and replace them with rough. Doesn’t even have to be all that nasty of rough, just enough to where you can’t really control the spin. There is probably no part of the game with a bigger variance from pro to average amateur than bunker play.
FrogBall09
Active Member
you realize getting rid of many bunkers and moving a few to the locations that most pros land when they miss - for example the one that was moved 40 yds closer to the green on the left side of 15 and surrounded by rough - is exactly what Hanse did. He brought rough into almost every errant shot. But again you said it seems easier.
Here is also something may think about regarding the visual appeal of the redesign - Hanse removed over half the hardscape on the course. It visually looks more like a green field with less distinguishable points because it has less cement - a ton of cart paths are just gone, the bridges are lower and without rails, many bridges were moved off to the side, the paths that remain largely stone pebbles - so much like a links style course that seems to be "less defined" in its layout - the course flows more as a complete unit vs 18 holes separated by cart paths.
that will be a lot more obvious when we don't have tents and ropes up all over the place.
Putt4Purple
Active Member
Scottie Scheffler hit in the sand bunker on 9 against the middle island in the bunker. He had a lay up to the green. He bogeyed the hole. Re enforces my point of the fairway bunkers. Wexahue says pros are not scared of fairway bunkers. Golf analysts he is not.
It actually proves my point as much as it disproves it. If he was worried about going into that trap, he would have played less club to ensure he wouldn’t go into it. More likely, he wasn’t too concerned about going in it, got a bad break by being up against the middle island, and took his medicine.
I never said they never have problems with bunkers, or never hit into them (quite the opposite). It’s just that they don’t consider them much at all in terms of strategy. Take a look at shotlink data on 6 and 15 (and 9 for that matter) zero evidence that those guys are making conscious efforts to stay away from the traps. Heck, on 9 you can lay back from the trap and still have less than 130 yards to the hole, and it gets pretty narrow down there, and still 35-40 of the field is trying to drive it 290-300 yards.
Putt4Purple
Active Member
You must be a lawyer. Twisting words. It proves my point about what my point was from the very beginning about the fairway bunkers having a revised outcome to who the winner will be. I’m watching the tournament now and this golf course is proving my analysis correct.
ShreveFrog
Full Member
Wow, Max Homa +8 first round. Scheffler +2. I’d say it’s tough.
Realtorfrog
Full Member
Biggest take away for me is the greens seem more contoured and the ball rolls off the green on approach shots. Greens are in great shape but still so small compared to most courses.
JogginFrog
Active Member
Scheffler just chipped in on 9 for a bogey-free 65 in round 2, so my prediction that it would play easier may not be quite dead (still on life support).
But if the players are seeing roll-offs on approaches, count me in favor of the redesign. I don't think restoration to the "rugged" look of the 1930s was necessary--Colonial had the grit to survive its birth in the depression, but that doesn't mean it should attempt to relive it. What will keep the course relevant are green complexes that punish less-than-precise approaches, a la Pinehurst. And if they managed to retain the "Maxwell rolls," so much the better.
The comments about the flat look made me think they had gone a different direction. And with the HVAC substructure now in place, the grounds staff will be able to keep the greens in top condition and preserve the crazy idea of bentgrass greens in Texas into a second century.
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JogginFrog
Active Member
Hoge with a second-round 69; he'll make the cut at Even. Hoping Springer sees the weekend as well; he's at -1 but just started round 2.
