ShreveFrog
Full Member
@Putt4Purple - Sorry, my baseball comment was tangential. I just thought you'd have harsher criticism of what's happened at Colonial for the general fan.
The stands between 9 green and 1 tee box were open to the public. and anytime I walked thru there to get across I never saw anybody sitting in them. There were folks sitting on the picnic tables near the concession stand up there having drinks.To get to 10 you had to walk through the bleachers behind the 9th green (unless you used the crosswalk on 9.) Were those bleachers free to sit on for grounds pass visitors, or was there an upcharge? They also had some food and beverage there, iirc.
prepare to be underwhelmed with Mira Vista if you think "all Colonial got for the money" was the result....it would cost $50-70+ mil to fix Mira Vista beyond the core infrastructure that creates the primary issues there because their footprint is 2x what Colonial had to deal with. So what is that assessment - $100k per member?Colonial really sucked this year for the GA fans. I’m giving them a break on too much criticism as they did a great job in getting the course open but man we wondered around so much trying to follow Hoge and ran into so many dead ends and had to turn around and cross the fairways plenty of times just to follow him. I remember thinking this is all they got for that much money? I haven’t played enough to recognize the subtlety of the changes. I was under impressed with the course redesign and hopefully Mira Vista will do better with theirs. I remain skeptical that they can pull it off any better. Time will tell for both courses.
I’m personally just underwhelmed by the renovation. That’s just me. Not to say every change was bad, or not necessary. I think it’s telling that members are having to explain why everything is so much better.prepare to be underwhelmed with Mira Vista if you think "all Colonial got for the money" was the result....it would cost $50-70+ mil to fix Mira Vista beyond the core infrastructure that creates the primary issues there because their footprint is 2x what Colonial had to deal with. So what is that assessment - $100k per member?
75% of the money for a truly great course renovation is under ground and in the turf - you don't reroute great golf course designs. if you need a lot of holes changed on the surface - your course sucked to begin with...look at Oakmont, Pinehurst 2, Baltusrol and Southern Hills renovations. Lots of trees got removed but no holes were materially moved.
Pinehurst 7 is probably one of the few large layout redesigns that has occurred on a once great course and resulted in a better layout - most of the time you get what Colonial had with our old 8th - a poor substitute for the original.
At Colonial, every green complex was rebuilt and has sub-surface watering and cooling, every bunker was rebuilt, the entire drainage and irrigation systems are new, most of the hardscape was removed and what remains was rebuilt, ALL of the turf is new... forget the changes in 8th hole or the creek drainage - the important place for money on a renovation is making sure the course is in great condition all year not just for a few weeks after Texas winter and before Texas summer.
Its funny how the initial discussion here on the course were people saying they were unimpressed with the redesign because they thought it would be easier. That seems to have moved on to now complaining about access....I guess the highest average score in the last 20 years and only one guy in double digits under par shut the "it will be easier" portion of the crowd up.
wonder what you guys would have thought had the club decided to not allow a crowd at all - at one time that was a discussion since the course turf is new and we leveled the old club storage/teen room building that sits between 1 and 18 late last year so we had a rubble pile construction site to work around.
I think the largest problem the club has with future crowd flow and seating will be the area around 5th green, 6th tee, 7th green, 8th tee. There used to be 2 different GA seating areas plus one of the larger concessions - there really is not a way to get crowds back there now at all. Everywhere else on the course has a plan for GA access in the future - but as others have said, as players expect larger purses and costs of putting on an event sky rocket, expect to see much more in the way of "specialty" access and inclusive ticket options. Especially at a course that needs to limit public traffic to around 30k/day due to the size of the land Colonial sits on.
well I guess we could just let the poorly educated remain so....I was trying to help since I was one of only 60 that actually got to play it.I’m personally just underwhelmed by the renovation. That’s just me. Not to say every change was bad, or not necessary. I think it’s telling that members are having to explain why everything is so much better.
Were I a member and got a big assessment and the course was shut down for a year, I would have expected better, that’s all.
@FrogBall09, I'll admit to having been wrong on scoring. I think the green substructure will be a well-spent investment, and losing the hardscape is a win, even if the barranca concept doesn't pan out over time.well I guess we could just let the poorly educated remain so....I was trying to help since I was one of only 60 that actually got to play it.
But think whatever - you were wrong before and you are wrong now - however since you are not a member you don't really need to be worried about it.
I think you missed the gist of my comments. The course sucked for the GA fan, not the ones in suites and stands. It was hard to navigate if you wanted to follow a player. I mentioned I was giving it a pass for this year as I know the focus was to get the course open and ready for the tournament. That was a monumental task. I assume all that will be taken care of in the following year. As I said, I haven’t played it enough in the past, or the new layout since it reopened so I can’t really speak to its playability. Mira Vista’s redesign is concerning to me as our assessment and budget was several dollars under Colonial’s and the redesign, while extensive, is nowhere near as extensive as Colonial’s. MV is really a fun course and hopefully will remain so after the redo.prepare to be underwhelmed with Mira Vista if you think "all Colonial got for the money" was the result....it would cost $50-70+ mil to fix Mira Vista beyond the core infrastructure that creates the primary issues there because their footprint is 2x what Colonial had to deal with. So what is that assessment - $100k per member?
75% of the money for a truly great course renovation is under ground and in the turf - you don't reroute great golf course designs. if you need a lot of holes changed on the surface - your course sucked to begin with...look at Oakmont, Pinehurst 2, Baltusrol and Southern Hills renovations. Lots of trees got removed but no holes were materially moved.
Pinehurst 7 is probably one of the few large layout redesigns that has occurred on a once great course and resulted in a better layout - most of the time you get what Colonial had with our old 8th - a poor substitute for the original.
At Colonial, every green complex was rebuilt and has sub-surface watering and cooling, every bunker was rebuilt, the entire drainage and irrigation systems are new, most of the hardscape was removed and what remains was rebuilt, ALL of the turf is new... forget the changes in 8th hole or the creek drainage - the important place for money on a renovation is making sure the course is in great condition all year not just for a few weeks after Texas winter and before Texas summer.
Its funny how the initial discussion here on the course were people saying they were unimpressed with the redesign because they thought it would be easier. That seems to have moved on to now complaining about access....I guess the highest average score in the last 20 years and only one guy in double digits under par shut the "it will be easier" portion of the crowd up.
wonder what you guys would have thought had the club decided to not allow a crowd at all - at one time that was a discussion since the course turf is new and we leveled the old club storage/teen room building that sits between 1 and 18 late last year so we had a rubble pile construction site to work around.
I think the largest problem the club has with future crowd flow and seating will be the area around 5th green, 6th tee, 7th green, 8th tee. There used to be 2 different GA seating areas plus one of the larger concessions - there really is not a way to get crowds back there now at all. Everywhere else on the course has a plan for GA access in the future - but as others have said, as players expect larger purses and costs of putting on an event sky rocket, expect to see much more in the way of "specialty" access and inclusive ticket options. Especially at a course that needs to limit public traffic to around 30k/day due to the size of the land Colonial sits on.
Man, you really should sit this one out. I don't typically go there, but with each post, you just dig yourself in deeper. FrogBall09 did a great job of telling us where the money -- and where the value is -- in this renovation. It's going to be in turf conditions. They're going to be exponentially better in the summer and early fall months for the members, which will carry over for the other seven or so months.I’m personally just underwhelmed by the renovation. That’s just me. Not to say every change was bad, or not necessary. I think it’s telling that members are having to explain why everything is so much better.
Were I a member and got a big assessment and the course was shut down for a year, I would have expected better, that’s all.
You are entitled to your opinion, just curious if you were on the course or watched on TV? The club did what they felt needed to be done. I’m not a member but know many. They are not bitching.I’m personally just underwhelmed by the renovation. That’s just me. Not to say every change was bad, or not necessary. I think it’s telling that members are having to explain why everything is so much better.
Were I a member and got a big assessment and the course was shut down for a year, I would have expected better, that’s all.
Ok - well this will be my last long response - the tourneys over and I am just waiting until Fathers day when we open back for member play to go enjoy the course@FrogBall09, I'll admit to having been wrong on scoring. I think the green substructure will be a well-spent investment, and losing the hardscape is a win, even if the barranca concept doesn't pan out over time.
As a member, how do you assess the value that Hanse brought, and how his contribution differed from Keith Foster's?
I hope Mira Vistas goes well - it should really be one of the best courses in Ft Worth because it has the best track of land by a long shot. The issue has always been the dirt under the grass and the drainage - can they rebuild it so its maintainable at a reasonable cost and time given the size of the footprint.I think you missed the gist of my comments. The course sucked for the GA fan, not the ones in suites and stands. It was hard to navigate if you wanted to follow a player. I mentioned I was giving it a pass for this year as I know the focus was to get the course open and ready for the tournament. That was a monumental task. I assume all that will be taken care of in the following year. As I said, I haven’t played it enough in the past, or the new layout since it reopened so I can’t really speak to its playability. Mira Vista’s redesign is concerning to me as our assessment and budget was several dollars under Colonial’s and the redesign, while extensive, is nowhere near as extensive as Colonial’s. MV is really a fun course and hopefully will remain so after the redo.
Doubt we are ever hosting another US Open - mens or women’s again….I sort of miss the old days of trucks dumping loads of ice on the greens...
Nope.Heard there were no cart paths. Will those be added later. I’m trying to think if I saw any when I went over 10 years ago.
Unrelated, but an interesting piece of trivia. Oakmont's greens were over 100 years old before they finally had to rebuild them. They are bent, but by the time they mature, they are mostly poa annua, which is technically a weed.Plus his green complexes were state of the art 20 years ago but assumed at the time we would be rebuilding them every 10 years - not something that the membership knew at the time. Thus they were way beyond end of life and could not support bent grass anymore - and for anyone that knows the history of Colonial, bent is the reason the club exists.
Which is sad, given that Colonial is one of the premier courses in America. I guess it's too hard to mow with a helicopter, what with all those trees...Doubt we are ever hosting another US Open - mens or women’s again….