“the golf program was struggling” is obviously a lie…
Montigel files age discrimination suit against TCU
- Thread starter Frog-in-law1995
- Start date
“the golf program was struggling” is obviously a lie…
Ron Swanson
Full Member
Welcome to the board, Bill
FrogBall09
Active Member
to be fair to First Tee - the truth is somewhere in the middle. I don't think he listened to former players as much as they would have liked or he probably should have, but some of those guys also think their opinion matters more than it should. Bill was not killing it and it did feel like the trajectory was going the wrong way (sneaking into the post season kind of feel even before missing it this year) slowly but definitely had not "tanked" - which is pretty much a description of his entire tenure. How much of that is him vs TCU's lack of investment in our program is debatable and the answer is most likely "both".
We have no excuses now because it once the Colonial facility is complete - we will not have any other moves really beyond hiring one of these guys to help out like we had Nolan Ryan helping baseball back in the day.
gohornedfrogs
Tier 1
I think the lack of support of former players is a data point, but just one of them, and not the critical one. It's not unusual for Tour players to "move on" from their college coaches. The exceptions to that rule were Eddie Merrins (McCarron and Jobe and many others stayed close to him), and Harvey Penick (Crenshaw, Kite and many others sought his wisdom throughout their careers). The common theme you will see there is that Merrins and Penick were exemplary instructors. Okie State is also an exception, with Oak Tree being their common ground probably as much as Holder. Former Georgia players have great rapport with Chris Haack from their stable of tour players, too. Couples, Elkington, et. al. only had a passing relationship with Dave Williams, to my knowledge. That's probably the more relevant example as it relates to TCU.
Brevity Frog
Active Member
“we” huh? Tell us, who is “we” and what have you done exactly? Standing by….
While I wait for your disclosure, I’ll agree with dirtbag that the cat is out of the bag. The idea that “the case will settle so none of this will come out” is naive and stupid. The salacious “facts” are out there. Unnecessarily so. They are unrelated to the age claims. If he had filed a simple age claim—fine. No biggie. But Montigel has done his best to run his decades-long employer through the mud as a revenge tactic. Montigel’s name is now dirt and his legacy is now that of a mudslinging rumor merchant.
FrogBall09
Active Member
- sorry - I actually think of TCU as my school given 3 generations and 11 members of my family are graduates... Guess that offends Donati and his chronies, which you are obviously one of based on your reaction to all of this.
And again - message board discussions and a Muck article are a lot different than a court hearing. If anyone had not heard most of those rumors to date- than you are not really involved in our athletic program at all.
If you want to worry about the rep to our school - then ask why our AD thought his indiscretions were more important than our school to being with
Brevity Frog
Active Member
Not a Donati stooge. Never met the man. And I’m disgusted by the allegations. I have serious doubts about his ability to lead going forward (and looking backward) and I am worried about TCU because of it.
That said, I think what Montigel and his lawyer did is a trashy way to go about this and Montigel’s name is dirt.
I’m done with this topic, trashy lawyers, and rumor-mongers-for-hire.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the announcement that he wasn't returning made a couple years ago? Why the lawsuit now?
He was coasting as a coach, as is often the case with guys in their mid-60's who have been doing it forever at one place. He probably would have been perfectly content sticking around another 4-5 years, cashing his nice little paycheck, and having an "ok" program. And the decision makers probably sensed that, and decided to make a move in an attempt to improve the program. As for the lack of facilities, part of that rests with him IMO for not being more aggressive in trying to raise the funds and make the pitch to make things like that happen. Isn't that part of the job in non-rev sports, to take the lead in improving facilities for the program?
It's incredible, and pretty admirable really, that is was able to last as long as he did given the circumstances. And all in all, TCU treated him VERY well. Take whatever settlement you can get and ride off into the sunset.
First Tee Frog
Active Member
they finished the 23 season ranked 41st in the country even with the 2nd place finish at big 12 and they were in the bottom half of the field in 5 of 10 real tournaments they played. Sorry I am not counting the JV tournaments they won. The big issue is that team had more talent than that. Between Gus, Jakob, and Aymeric, that team should have been top 15. One good finish does not a season make.
FrogBall09
Active Member
no idea why now
I think he was coaching like a guy who thought he knew what was needed after 35 years - but to me our program was not any different over the course of his career - we were good enough to make the post season most years but never good enough to do much with it. The pinnacle of his tenure was his first group that included JJ1 making it to 7th in the nation. So its not like he ever was premier- he just got old and we suddenly decided to care about golf for 15 mins for the first time in 35 years as a school I guess.
FrogBall09
Active Member
the oldest debate in college and above sports - how much is the coaches fault.
When we bring in top 20 recruiting classes in other sports but fail to make the post season - its often said the coaches did what they should, got the talent but the players should know how to play at this level and it was the players that failed to execute.
I always ask about our baseball staff that if nothing that happens on the field is their responsibility - why do we have coaches since Meredith can fill out the lineup card? I get told its the players failing to execute at the plate or on the mound - coaches cant hit or pitch for them.
Serious question since you are a well respected coach - Golf is not really even a team sport most events - so how much of Gus, et al not performing better in tourneys is because of a "coach" that isn't their instructor at all vs their own inability to execute individually vs those guys maybe not being the right combination of guys for TCU at the time?
First Tee Frog
Active Member
It’s huge. What a coach says to a player in the moment can make a world of difference. There is a reason caddies get fired on the PGA tour. Say the wrong thing to a player that causes anxiety instead of inspiring commitment and the odds of hitting good shots is slim. I was told this was a huge issue for that team.
FrogBall09
Active Member
so is that the old man thing changing his messaging over time or the way he has always been and like GP not something that flies with the current generation of TCU golfers?
I always think back to the Trevino comment when having multiple swing and mental coaches first started on the tour - and he said he would never listen to a guy that couldn't beat him on the course. I guess I always have thought Bill was a weird choice for coach since most of our better players would not take him seriously given his best golf related skillset when he got the job was he could drive the van and organize a roster.
But maybe his mental coaching approach was better early on and has fallen off since the time of JJ1.
What is asked of a golf coach at the major college level has changed dramatically over the years. The guys that just sends kids out to qualify, picks a starting five based on that, and then drives the van are no longer. And honestly there used to be a lot of those.
FrogBall09
Active Member
probably all true and sounds a lot like what First Tee used to describe his approach to determining which players made the van in his last year as coach.
the question in the suit will be when did TCU Athletic leadership share something related to the idea that he needed to change during the term of his final contract with defined expectations he needed to adjust to even if he "couldn't realistically meet them" ?
Ideas like get someone on staff that can instruct if you can't for example?
or did Donati not prep at all for the event, determine Bill could not do the job we want in the future without telling him what was expected and then tell him with "we have decided to move in another direction" at the end - which is a really bad move with a over 50 year old employee but really bad with a 68 year old after 3 plus decades.
Companies win these in situations where they can point to documented goals and expected changes that were not met despite multiple discussions
Former employees win if the detailed discussions didn't happen, it wasn't well documented, what is expected isn't quantified (terms like "better" or "more" are subjective) or if they met the goals and you got rid of them anyway because the metrics were just [ deposit from a bull that looks like Art Briles ] for show.
You seem to be looking at this through the lens of an HR department at a Fortune 500 company.
The golf program was Montigel's to look over, he was going to either going to meet expectations or not. I don't know what Donati or VBo told him in terms of expectations, but what do they know about running a golf program that they could advise him about? The guy coached the golf team for 35 years, had varying levels of success, the program started getting stale relative to other programs we compete against, so they decided not to renew his contract. That's pretty much it, I don't see anything wrong with that at all. The fact that he's 68 years old doesn't really matter, many, many coaches have been fired for performance in the past with better results than what Montigel was getting.
FYI, it's really not hard to "make the NCAA tournament" in golf if you are a halfway decent program. It's should not be hard at all at a place like TCU, all things considered.
kaiser soze
Active Member
Agreed. Is there any employee "right" or even expectation to be awarded successive contracts by an employer i in this case?
I get from the corporate world the HR/paper trail requirement of using a "PIP" to part with an underperforming employee , but this was a simple contract that termed out right? I cant imaging TCU has to keep awarding them in perpetuity.
I get from the corporate world the HR/paper trail requirement of using a "PIP" to part with an underperforming employee , but this was a simple contract that termed out right? I cant imaging TCU has to keep awarding them in perpetuity.
JogginFrog
Active Member
It’s hard for a coach to recruit to one of the few—or only, according to AllFrog—Power 5 school without a dedicated practice facility. It can’t be easy for an AD to raise $$ for facilities when the coaches are near retirement. Something has to give.
But the women's golf coach—also with close to 30 years' tenure—got a 3-year extension last June, shortly after Montigel's contract expired. Over the past decade, her teams have produced fewer top-3 conference finishes, fewer appearances at nationals, and a lower average team ranking than the men. Not sure if that played into Montigel's decision to sue or not. But it makes you wonder what went into the AD's decisions.
What’s undeniable is that good TCU players who have transferred have had immediate success elsewhere. Both men and women have had two transfers in the past five years who earned All-America honors in their first year after transferring. The male transfers have since won the British Am and Latin American Am. Those players did not develop to their potential at TCU, although it makes it hard to fault the recruiting.
But the women's golf coach—also with close to 30 years' tenure—got a 3-year extension last June, shortly after Montigel's contract expired. Over the past decade, her teams have produced fewer top-3 conference finishes, fewer appearances at nationals, and a lower average team ranking than the men. Not sure if that played into Montigel's decision to sue or not. But it makes you wonder what went into the AD's decisions.
What’s undeniable is that good TCU players who have transferred have had immediate success elsewhere. Both men and women have had two transfers in the past five years who earned All-America honors in their first year after transferring. The male transfers have since won the British Am and Latin American Am. Those players did not develop to their potential at TCU, although it makes it hard to fault the recruiting.
FrogBall09
Active Member
employment law doesn't differ between TCU and a corporation - sorry we don't get a pass because its "sports"
and if its so easy - why was our streak the longest in the country before we missed it in his last year?
FrogBall09
Active Member
when they are over the age of 50 - contract ending is irrelevant unless you told them upfront and in the language of the contract it is a one time contract for a fixed term and delivery of a certain set of responsibilities.
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