• The KillerFrogs

Hey Gary you suck

Wexahu

Full Member
why do you keep going back to the same argument about if those teams were really that good or not. the 2009 and 2010 teams were very good, the personnel fit the defensive scheme perfectly and the frogs and williamson hit some home runs in the offensive line with guys like cannon, newhouse, etc....

was there any team prior to the2009-2010 teams that matched up to them? they had talent and depth on the defensive side of the ball, were physical in the offensive line, you had a very good quarterback in dalton, talent at wide receiver, and they played with a focus that i am not sure can be matched during any other 2-year period during gary's time and that isn't a knock on him. that is more a nod to those players.

never been a huge ratings guy because i think the system is misunderstood and has a huge flaw it in. first, for some reason a 3-star recruit is viewed by many as an average recruit which isn't right. supposedly the system is based upon whether or not a kid projects to the nfl which i have never understood why that is the benchmark, but someone decided that was the benchmark so an offensive line prospect like marcus cannon at 6'3" won't project to be a highly rated offensive tackle prospect because he is too short so someone tell marcus he won't make it very long in the nfl at that height at tackle.

another big flaw is the rating system is not based upon how a kid projects in a specific system so take someone like greg mccoy who was a 3-start coming out of woodrow in dallas because of why? goodness knows it wasn't his athletic ability so maybe because at 5'10" he didn't project well as an nfl corner, but in gary's system with those feet and hips and his aggressive nature he was a perfect fit if he trusted the scheme. thing is none of that gets factored into the ratings because the experts i would bet don't try to project in that manner because they have as much a clue as most of the posters on this board

finally, how do you rate kids across the metroplex, state, and country if you don't understand the level of competition. multiple examples here. maponga didn't look like an athlete, didn't have great measurables, but according to the coaches in his district he was a nightmare to block and all he did was make plays in a solid district. if you don't go flip those rocks, talk to those coaches, and know the talent in that district how do you rate him? andy dalton basically pitched the ball back to the tailback and then blocked for joseph at katy and occassionally threw deep on play action so without the summer passing leagues we have now how do you know about his arm strength and intangibles unless you go to katy high? how do you know about jimmy young in nw louisiana or foltz in kansas unless you really knew those areas which aren't loaded with subscribers so if you are a service you cover the big areas and the big schools

one thing i always liked about anthony bourdain's travel show was he often went to the places were the average people ate and focused on the skill of the chefs who took the leftover parts and made great meals. a truly great chef can take good ingredients, bring out the best in those, meld them together and create a remarkable meal. stopped eating at steak houses because i got tired of paying way too much money for supposedly prime meat that really wasn't done much with, had some sauce on it to try to dress it up, and the sides really don't go well with the meal

sound familar? the 09-10 teams had talent and we see that because that was the group the did send multiple kids to the nfl, that talent was developed, and it fit together. these teams now have talent, but it isn't being developed, the quality of kitchen staff has fallen off, and the executive chef would rather be on "food network, travel channel etc..." than be in kitchen

Hey, I'm not really disagreeing with you.

And not pointing at you because I know you don't necessarily prescribe to this, but every recruiting season all we hear is we need to start landing more of these 4 and 5 star guys in order to compete. And history says that no we don't, we need to land guys who can be developed into better players when they are 20-21 years old. Maybe it's the coaches, maybe it's the evaluation, I don't know, but go back and look at the list of our "4-star" recruits since we joined the Big 12. Our success rate with 2-star guys is about as impressive. And generally, there hasn't been near as much baggage.
 

Eight

Member
Hey, I'm not really disagreeing with you.

And not pointing at you because I know you don't necessarily prescribe to this, but every recruiting season all we hear is we need to start landing more of these 4 and 5 star guys in order to compete. And history says that no we don't, we need to land guys who can be developed into better players when they are 20-21 years old. Maybe it's the coaches, maybe it's the evaluation, I don't know, but go back and look at the list of our "4-star" recruits since we joined the Big 12. Our success rate with 2-star guys is about as impressive. And generally, there hasn't been near as much baggage.

no, the success rate for the 2-stars is not as impressive if you actually go back and look at them over an extended period of time and in regards to baggage i goes i am the only one who remembers that players would seem to "disappear" from the roster in the off season from time to time.
 

cheese83

Full Member
Hey, I'm not really disagreeing with you.

And not pointing at you because I know you don't necessarily prescribe to this, but every recruiting season all we hear is we need to start landing more of these 4 and 5 star guys in order to compete. And history says that no we don't, we need to land guys who can be developed into better players when they are 20-21 years old. Maybe it's the coaches, maybe it's the evaluation, I don't know, but go back and look at the list of our "4-star" recruits since we joined the Big 12. Our success rate with 2-star guys is about as impressive. And generally, there hasn't been near as much baggage.

I did a breakdown this Summer I think where I went back and looked at our recruiting classes. Basically the last 3-4 years we missed on all kinds of kids regardless of their rating. Guys that came in and transferred out, never played, got hurt, etc.
Go look at the 2017 and 2018 classes, 2019 is pretty bad too. All 3 of those years the class was ranked 3rd in the Big 12 and that was only b/c of 4* kids that were added late. 2019 was Karter Johnson, Sorrels, Matt Baldwin,
2018 - Vongor, Rogers, Hunt, Bryson Jackson, McKinney, Fabian Franklin (never made it), Ben Wilson, just a class littered with kids who aren't even on the roster or who haven't contributed
2017 - Manning, Harris, Shawn Robinson, and a ton of other guys who never really developed

Like Eight said don't fall for the rankings, on paper we have been 3rd in conference when in reality these guys aren't lasting or developing at all.
 

SackLunch

Active Member
aside from hughes how many 2-stars became 1st round picks back in the good old days? how many 2-stars got drafted at all? how many of those 2-stars ended up busts and no one noticed because there were no expectations when they came to campus?

finding talent that fits your systems is critical, projecting talent is key, and we haven't even gotten to player development and utilization but can we please stop with the back in the day we were a better team with lesser talent unless you also want to admit that tcu was the oklahoma in those conferences. that the depth of competition wasn't close to what it is now and the resources and money put into those programs are a fraction of what most of our conference competitors spend just to keep up each year
Good points except the part about how many 2 stars even got drafted. I bet if you do the research, which I have not, most of out draft pics from roughly the 2005-2014 time period were all 2 star players with the exception of a few 3 stars and maybe one or two 4 stars. I could easily be wrong but I'm fairly positive most of them were 2/3 star players coming out of HS.
 
High level college football is such a huge leap from HS that everyone is going to have some misses. Evaluation is always paramount but what concerns me more than that is the lack of development from the guys that do actually play. I think Kelly has done a pretty good job overall of producing some growth among the receivers but otherwise, with a few exceptions, most guys just kind of are what they are from the beginning or, worse yet, a few of them have seemed to regress.
 

Wexahu

Full Member
I did a breakdown this Summer I think where I went back and looked at our recruiting classes. Basically the last 3-4 years we missed on all kinds of kids regardless of their rating. Guys that came in and transferred out, never played, got hurt, etc.
Go look at the 2017 and 2018 classes, 2019 is pretty bad too. All 3 of those years the class was ranked 3rd in the Big 12 and that was only b/c of 4* kids that were added late. 2019 was Karter Johnson, Sorrels, Matt Baldwin,
2018 - Vongor, Rogers, Hunt, Bryson Jackson, McKinney, Fabian Franklin (never made it), Ben Wilson, just a class littered with kids who aren't even on the roster or who haven't contributed
2017 - Manning, Harris, Shawn Robinson, and a ton of other guys who never really developed

Like Eight said don't fall for the rankings, on paper we have been 3rd in conference when in reality these guys aren't lasting or developing at all.
Don't fall for the rankings, but every recruiting season that's what we do. Virtually everyone on here (and every college football fan) will call scoreboard on other teams who have a lower recruiting "ranking" than their team. It's almost a sport within a sport. So much so that I am convinced that some coaches sign players they know will never play for them just to boost their ranking. I think we probably did that with Fabian Franklin and a few others.
 

4 Oaks Frog

Active Member
as i said above, they were good teams, 09-10 were very good and the talent was underrated, it was developed, it was utilized, and they played with a focus unlike today. so is that on the talent or those in charge of developing the talent?

i will also say that if you go back and look at the recruiting classes 1998-2005 look at all the 2-stars and note how many of those prospects even made a real impact and how many are names you don't remember. the 2006-08 class are where we see the 2-star homeruns that people often point to so why them and not those classes before?
That might be the problem, right there. MFGP did a great job of coaching up those 2zies’. It was/is his greatest strength…getting more it of less.
Perhaps he just can’t get a handle on coaching the “more talented group” that we are getting now. He seems to be getting less out of more, now. Have seen that kind of thing before…
GO FROGS!
BEAT KSU!
Spit Blood~~<~<and fornicate baylor!!
 

Froggish

Active Member
TCU rarely snags a 4* or 5*. With the advent of NIL I imagine we will only find them in our dreams...
We’ve been at a steady 20% rate on 4star or better for the last 5 years..Which ranks in the top 30 in the country in overall roster talent. All that with Gary Patterson who is one of the worst recruiting HCs in America.
 

4th. down

Active Member
I did a breakdown this Summer I think where I went back and looked at our recruiting classes. Basically the last 3-4 years we missed on all kinds of kids regardless of their rating. Guys that came in and transferred out, never played, got hurt, etc.
Go look at the 2017 and 2018 classes, 2019 is pretty bad too. All 3 of those years the class was ranked 3rd in the Big 12 and that was only b/c of 4* kids that were added late. 2019 was Karter Johnson, Sorrels, Matt Baldwin,
2018 - Vongor, Rogers, Hunt, Bryson Jackson, McKinney, Fabian Franklin (never made it), Ben Wilson, just a class littered with kids who aren't even on the roster or who haven't contributed
2017 - Manning, Harris, Shawn Robinson, and a ton of other guys who never really developed

Like Eight said don't fall for the rankings, on paper we have been 3rd in conference when in reality these guys aren't lasting or developing at all.
Very good, though painful, when you review the actual stats. There is an art, obviously to recruiting but I'm beginning to kinda come around to 8's thoughts on it....quit giving so much weight to rankings......look at Texas as an example of how deceiving it is.
 

Eight

Member
Good points except the part about how many 2 stars even got drafted. I bet if you do the research, which I have not, most of out draft pics from roughly the 2005-2014 time period were all 2 star players with the exception of a few 3 stars and maybe one or two 4 stars. I could easily be wrong but I'm fairly positive most of them were 2/3 star players coming out of HS.

great question and i did a quick overview of the frogs who were drafted in that period using the 247 database. numbers might be different with espsn, but 247's database is free and easy to access.

one challenge going that far back is tcu recruits are only rated back to the 2002 class. when i checked the player rankings for 2001 only 129 players were rated in 2001 and no player rated was given less than 4 stars so the texas longhorn class in 2001 that was ranked #11 in the country only had 4 players rated that year. compare that to the 2021 class where 247 gave 369 players a rating of 4-stars or higher and rated well over 1,000 kids.

specifically that means players such as anthony alabi, drew coleman, michael toudouze and cory rogers who were drafted in 2005 and 2006 weren't given any type of rating.

there are ratings for the players drafted in 2007-2014 and here are those numbers.

tcu signed 49 2 stars in the classes between 2002-2011 and 7 of those got drafted
they signed 96 3 stars in those same classes and 11 got drafted
finally the frogs signed 7 4 stars during that time and 2 of those got drafted

the 2009 tcu draft class had 5 players overall and 4 2-stars who got drafted in blake schluter, aaron brown, robert henson, and jason phillips. three of those players came from the same recruiting class in 2004.

not sure what all of this truly proves other than the holes in the ratings services simply because of the challenges in scale. consider that in 2012 tcu signed two 2-star recruits according to 247. josh carraway who missed a great deal of time to injury in high school and derrick kindred who played multiple positions (rb, de, lb, and db) for a bad high school team yet both ended up playing in the nfl or that in 2020 supposedly there were over 200 high school football players in texas who were better prospects than kendre miller.
 
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ShreveFrog

Full Member
I believe OC Justin Fuente took us to that next level with the Fiesta and Rose Bowl teams. He had a great set of skillies and maxed them out. Dalton, the rb’s, the receivers, with just one 4* in Kerley. Maybe Boyce?
 

Eight

Member
I believe OC Justin Fuente took us to that next level with the Fiesta and Rose Bowl teams. He had a great set of skillies and maxed them out. Dalton, the rb’s, the receivers, with just one 4* in Kerley. Maybe Boyce?

kerley and james were the only players given a 4-star rating on the offense . boyce was a 3-star and if i remember correctly he was a running back at copperas cove who got moved to wr at tcu, but if could be wrong with that memory
 

cheese83

Full Member
kerley and james were the only players given a 4-star rating on the offense . boyce was a 3-star and if i remember correctly he was a running back at copperas cove who got moved to wr at tcu, but if could be wrong with that memory

Also I did a dive a while back and the services over time have increased the amount of 4 and 3 star kids. Originally it used to be a 2* was a kid who doesn't have any film or hasn't been reviewed by one of their "analysts."
Now almost everyone that hits the camp circuits and gets D1 offers is a 3* player. In Texas this year there are 8 5* kids, 43 4* kids, and then 172 3* kids. The only kid who is a 2* is ranked 224 from North Crowley and has one offer from New Mexico. Even Texas State now a days gets tons of 3* kids. They do use a number system on 247 but it's all subjective.
 

Eight

Member
Also I did a dive a while back and the services over time have increased the amount of 4 and 3 star kids. Originally it used to be a 2* was a kid who doesn't have any film or hasn't been reviewed by one of their "analysts."
Now almost everyone that hits the camp circuits and gets D1 offers is a 3* player. In Texas this year there are 8 5* kids, 43 4* kids, and then 172 3* kids. The only kid who is a 2* is ranked 224 from North Crowley and has one offer from New Mexico. Even Texas State now a days gets tons of 3* kids. They do use a number system on 247 but it's all subjective.

good info and i think it just goes to point out that saying the 2-stars back in the day are better than our recruits today is flawed because the rating system was just so inaccurate due to a lack of data and any real baseline

obviously a kid like jason who switched positions, grew a couple of inches and added 30+ lbs over 5 years would be missed, but consider schluter. he played at ganado high which i would bet most of those this board has no idea where it is or its classification (looked it up and it is 2a now so who knows back in the early 2000's) . damn well know there wasn't any recruiting expert working the area south of el campo, there were no recruiting combines, and there was no hudl to easily share video so did anyone besides eddie williamson have any idea what tcu might be getting in an offensive line prospect?
 
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Pharm Frog

Full Member
kerley and james were the only players given a 4-star rating on the offense . boyce was a 3-star and if i remember correctly he was a running back at copperas cove who got moved to wr at tcu, but if could be wrong with that memory

Boyce played wherever he wanted to for CC. Was sometimes flanked…sometimes in the backfield…sometimes like a TE/H-back thing. Was a man among boys
 
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