• The KillerFrogs

OT: HB447 Texas Legalization

Are you for or against cannabis legalization in Texas?

  • Yes

    Votes: 76 85.4%
  • No

    Votes: 13 14.6%

  • Total voters
    89

BrewingFrog

Was I supposed to type something here?
I agree. Marijuana is a minor issue. I worry though, that this will be only the first step, as was discussed above. I feel strongly that no amount of heroin should ever be considered safe. Same with meth, IV fentanyl, ketamine, PCP and multiple other substances. Those drugs are instantly addicting and will lead to nothing constructive and will likely destroy lives if allowed. It will not only destroy the lives of those who abuse them, but also the lives of family, friends, and others who have to care for them or those who become victims of their criminal activity that these drugs often lead to.
I do not believe that "recreational" meth, heroin, or IV fentanyl is a real thing. once you are taking it, you are changed forever. There is PET scan evidence to show permanent changes in brain signaling and cravings. Some are in recovery, but they are always at risk of complete and total relapse at any moment. Those relapses often result in them being found dead. The specialty I work in is acutely tied to this issue, so I must be very aware of my colleagues. Everyone is susceptible. Trying a small amount of these drugs just to "see what it feels like" is not the same as smoking a little pot. That's why dealers are always willing to let you try the first time (so I have heard). Once you try, they know they have a long term customer. It is a steep escalation and the subsequent highs are never as good as the first, but the user is always seeking it, so they escalate higher and higher.
My best friend in high school was the most prolific drug dealer in our school (to his credit, he never even offered me drugs). He was also one of the smartest people I knew (scored a 1430 on SAT with no prep at all-yet never went to college). He wanted to go to medical school and actually inspired me to look into it. His upbringing was very different than mine and drugs were a big part of his parents' lives, so it was not a big surprise that he got caught up in it. He got a mid 6 figure salary job with his dad's real estate company, but then started using heroin. He embezzled several hundreds of thousands from the company before getting caught and losing everything. His brother even donated a kidney to him. That eventually failed him too and he died in his mid forties.
I have seen colleagues get caught up in drugs and lose their careers that they had studied for 12-14 years to get to. I know other physicians who died from overdoses, leaving behind spouses and kids.
I had a couple of in laws with similar drug issues. I have seen it in family, friends, colleagues, patients, etc. It is terrible. Having a kid get messed up in these drugs may be worse than having a child die. They will never be the same and they will almost never be trustworthy again. They will steal from you, they will lie, they will abuse you. Anything to serve their need. Eventually, they will likely become completely dependent on you for basic needs such as money, food, clothing, shelter. If you buy them anything of real value, they will likely trade or sell it for more drug. Picture 80+ year old parents still providing daily needs for their two >60 year old kids who have been on welfare their entire adult life. It is sad to see. I pray that my kids never go down that path.
I guess Oscar Wilde was wrong after all...

Some friends have been prescribed Oxycontin/Oxycodone for back surgery recovery or knee surgery recovery. A few of them found themselves addicted. This was a shock to me, as I knew these people to be good eggs and not into "drugs" in the manner commonly held. Yet, addicted they were. One sought treatment, and the others went cold turkey. Nobody stayed on them after the initial discovery. In that way, they were lucky. After the revelations, anecdotal stories came out like you spoke of above, of losing careers, families, death. Sobering, to say the least...

After a gall-bladder removal a few years ago, some time after the earlier revelations, I was prescribed Oxy for the recovery process. I looked at that bottle like it was a snake and didn't take a single one.
 

Wexahu

Full Member
I guess Oscar Wilde was wrong after all...

Some friends have been prescribed Oxycontin/Oxycodone for back surgery recovery or knee surgery recovery. A few of them found themselves addicted. This was a shock to me, as I knew these people to be good eggs and not into "drugs" in the manner commonly held. Yet, addicted they were. One sought treatment, and the others went cold turkey. Nobody stayed on them after the initial discovery. In that way, they were lucky. After the revelations, anecdotal stories came out like you spoke of above, of losing careers, families, death. Sobering, to say the least...

After a gall-bladder removal a few years ago, some time after the earlier revelations, I was prescribed Oxy for the recovery process. I looked at that bottle like it was a snake and didn't take a single one.

The same thing happened to three people that know fairly well, one who was a very good friend. They all recovered, but it was pretty ugly for awhile. Caught my friend going through medicine cabinets at a house party and found out later he stole a bottle of vicodin from another friend of mine. Pretty minor in the grand scheme of things, but no telling what was going on behind the scenes. He was barely functional for about a year. Stuff scares the [ Finebaum ] out of me.
 

YA

Active Member
Prescriptions are “controlled” by the fact that they are prescriptions and when prescribed they are legal already. I’ve not heard anyone advocating for OTC status for Rx narcotics but who knows what Oregon may do.
We have seen how that control worked out with rx companies paying drug pushing money to the doctors who set up pill mills to the masses. Yes there is now a 30 day maximum supply per prescription and more enforcement but the cat is out of the bag now.
 

Horny4TCU

Active Member
After a gall-bladder removal a few years ago, some time after the earlier revelations, I was prescribed Oxy for the recovery process. I looked at that bottle like it was a snake and didn't take a single one.
How much did you make, selling them on the black market?

I have had two really bad ear infections in my adult life, both times I was prescribed Oxy. I tried one or two, but noticed I get pretty nauseous, so I didn't take them. Still have them somewhere, not sure if they have expired.
 

BrewingFrog

Was I supposed to type something here?
How much did you make, selling them on the black market?

I have had two really bad ear infections in my adult life, both times I was prescribed Oxy. I tried one or two, but noticed I get pretty nauseous, so I didn't take them. Still have them somewhere, not sure if they have expired.
Actually, they were thrown out when we moved. My Black Market connections are pretty feeble...

One of the common side-effects (I am given to understand) to the damned things is constipation. In addition to the possibility of addiction, the last thing I wanted was to be all stopped up. No sir-ee.
 

satis1103

DAOTONPYH EHT LIAH LLA
Prescriptions are “controlled” by the fact that they are prescriptions and when prescribed they are legal already. I’ve not heard anyone advocating for OTC status for Rx narcotics but who knows what Oregon may do.
I work in criminal defense so I know what a controlled substance is, be it PG1 or PG3. It was a preemptive statement to clarify my stance is marijuana based only.
 

Eight

Member
my wife's absolute favorite patient is the drug seeker who as soon as she tells them what the doctor wrote a script for their pain responds, "oh, that won't work for me, i need a script for dilaudid"
 

Frog-in-law1995

Active Member
As for me now I have RA and the drugs' give me some unbelievable side effects (indigestion after most meals, back and muscle spasms as well as several others) I will smoke a small bowel and it relaxes me to the point that the indigestion stops my spasms are not as bad but some of the minor side effects are still there. TAX it, income will be more than they are receiving right now.

Who really gives a *hit if I want to sit at home and smoke a bowel or a joint or if I want to sip on my Johnnie Walker Blue. Can't Stop in from coming in for over 50 years, Legalize it.

Man, those homeopathic indigestion treatments are cray-cray.
 

Frog-in-law1995

Active Member
I guess Oscar Wilde was wrong after all...

Some friends have been prescribed Oxycontin/Oxycodone for back surgery recovery or knee surgery recovery. A few of them found themselves addicted. This was a shock to me, as I knew these people to be good eggs and not into "drugs" in the manner commonly held. Yet, addicted they were. One sought treatment, and the others went cold turkey. Nobody stayed on them after the initial discovery. In that way, they were lucky. After the revelations, anecdotal stories came out like you spoke of above, of losing careers, families, death. Sobering, to say the least...

After a gall-bladder removal a few years ago, some time after the earlier revelations, I was prescribed Oxy for the recovery process. I looked at that bottle like it was a snake and didn't take a single one.

Same after my cholesis, uh, colisesect, uh, gall bladder removal. I also ignored the morphine button hooked to my IV while in recovery from another surgery a few years back. Don’t want any part of that stuff. (Still got billed for several morphine doses, though. That was a fun billing fight. And my dad was chairman of the hospital board at the time.)
 

tcudoc

Full Member
I guess Oscar Wilde was wrong after all...

Some friends have been prescribed Oxycontin/Oxycodone for back surgery recovery or knee surgery recovery. A few of them found themselves addicted. This was a shock to me, as I knew these people to be good eggs and not into "drugs" in the manner commonly held. Yet, addicted they were. One sought treatment, and the others went cold turkey. Nobody stayed on them after the initial discovery. In that way, they were lucky. After the revelations, anecdotal stories came out like you spoke of above, of losing careers, families, death. Sobering, to say the least...

After a gall-bladder removal a few years ago, some time after the earlier revelations, I was prescribed Oxy for the recovery process. I looked at that bottle like it was a snake and didn't take a single one.

Purdue pharmaceuticals and the marketing of oxycontin. It is a sordid tale:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2622774/
 

BrewingFrog

Was I supposed to type something here?
Same after my cholesis, uh, colisesect, uh, gall bladder removal. I also ignored the morphine button hooked to my IV while in recovery from another surgery a few years back. Don’t want any part of that stuff. (Still got billed for several morphine doses, though. That was a fun billing fight. And my dad was chairman of the hospital board at the time.)
You got to stay in the hospital?!? They ran my ass out of there as soon as they were done. I waddled back up to my comfy bed and didn't leave for a couple of days...
Oh, and I don't know the fancy term either. I know they told me, but it must have been the drugs...
 

Frog-in-law1995

Active Member
You got to stay in the hospital?!? They ran my ass out of there as soon as they were done. I waddled back up to my comfy bed and didn't leave for a couple of days...
Oh, and I don't know the fancy term either. I know they told me, but it must have been the drugs...

2 different surgeries. Gall bladder was basically a day surgery. I was home that night and played golf the next day. Maybe day after. Been a while.
 

BrewingFrog

Was I supposed to type something here?
Purdue pharmaceuticals and the marketing of oxycontin. It is a sordid tale:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2622774/
Really just the beginning of industrial scale pharma-marketing. Viagra most likely dwarfed their budget by an order of magnitude.

The most interesting part to me was the section dealing with the segment of the population deemed to be highly susceptible to addiction: They really don't have a number. The studies cited threw out varying percentages, and I'm sure had differing criteria, but, wow! Of course, the paper is 13 years old, so I imagine there has been plenty of subsequent study of the matter.
 

tcudoc

Full Member
Really just the beginning of industrial scale pharma-marketing. Viagra most likely dwarfed their budget by an order of magnitude.

The most interesting part to me was the section dealing with the segment of the population deemed to be highly susceptible to addiction: They really don't have a number. The studies cited threw out varying percentages, and I'm sure had differing criteria, but, wow! Of course, the paper is 13 years old, so I imagine there has been plenty of subsequent study of the matter.
Yeah, going back to the graph, I think it is far worse than any thought.
 

Pharm Frog

Full Member
Really just the beginning of industrial scale pharma-marketing. Viagra most likely dwarfed their budget by an order of magnitude.

The most interesting part to me was the section dealing with the segment of the population deemed to be highly susceptible to addiction: They really don't have a number. The studies cited threw out varying percentages, and I'm sure had differing criteria, but, wow! Of course, the paper is 13 years old, so I imagine there has been plenty of subsequent study of the matter.

No. It wasn’t just the beginning of “industrial scale” Pharma marketing. That began long before PF and the Oxy story. I think I recall reading this paper many years ago but there’s been so many that it’s hard to recall. There’s a lot of truth in the article and then there’s some stuff that is just editorializing.

One of the things the author keeps repeating is that “it hadn’t shown superiority to other narcotic options”. Of course not...the FDA doesn’t mandate or even recommend superiority powered trials for approval and label. That type of trial is mostly targeted, Phase IV work (post-marketing). Otherwise it’s almost exclusively non-inferiority trials and may be near 100% in the highly placebo-affected pain therapy market. To promote off-label or minimize known or suspected adverse events is disgusting.

FWIW-I worked in commercial sales at PFE during the Viagra branded life cycle. (And yes, I’ve seen the movie).
 

Pharm Frog

Full Member
Yeah, going back to the graph, I think it is far worse than any thought.

I’d have to go back and look at the label history but if it was labeled for low addictive potential then the company had every right to promote it that way. The problem with a label audit from that era is that the FDA changed the format and data submission req’s back in about 2006.
 

Peacefrog

Degenerate
How much did you make, selling them on the black market?

I have had two really bad ear infections in my adult life, both times I was prescribed Oxy. I tried one or two, but noticed I get pretty nauseous, so I didn't take them. Still have them somewhere, not sure if they have expired.
When I had shoulder surgery they gave me oxy. It made me sick to my stomach. So they gave me a pill for that. It also caused insomnia. So they gave me a pill for that. It also constipates. More medicine. I realized then and there that the pain was better than the pain meds.
 
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