OT: HB447 Texas Legalization

[CountryFrog]

Interesting correlation that doesn't make any sense to me. Does your colleague have a relationship with JNJ, MNK, Purdue?

Proceeding to anecdotal town, my position is based on a sample size of a single person with Chron's. The one patient had to take opioids and steroids to control inflammation and be able to get some sleep with flare-ups. She's on a biologic (Humira worked great for a couple of years, then somehow became completely ineffective following a pregnancy- now responding well to Stelara) but needs additional symptoms management. The legal tools for symptoms management had wild side effects from mood swings to eyelashes falling out.

After a few years of disciplined cannabis use (vapes only a small amount- scientific measure of "one vape puff" nightly, immediately prior to going to bed) flares are much better controlled, sleep is better, and there have been ZERO side effects. Steroids and opioids have been eliminated in this one case.

I don't believe he was making a correlation. I believe he was arguing against those who might think there would be a correlation between legalized marijuana and a reduction in pain med overdoses when the numbers would seem to indicate in CO that is not the case.

 

[Froggish]

To me the real issue is with potency. This stuff being sold in today is much more potent than your grandpa's "hippy grass" and it seems many heath studies on the subject have shown that any health benefits from cannabis are strongly influenced by both methodology (Vaping, Smoking, or ingestion) and the strength of the strain. If your inhaling this stuff, which is by far the its the choice methodology, it has a negative side.

The whole argument on health benefits just seems insincere as it only really encompasses less than 10% of users. I have no doubt that their are cancer and seizure patience who are benefitting in small daily doses. I know that's true. However, for everyone of those people, there are 100 who just want to get high and use it like alcohol.

Just decriminalize and be done with it. The dog and pony show is ridiculous.

 

[Ron Swanson]

To me the real issue is with potency. This stuff being sold in today is much more potent than your grandpa's "hippy grass"...

Aint that the truth. I have a few buddies who smoke daily and have access to some really good ship. I’ve tried smoking with them a couple times and it absolutely put me on my arse. And I’m not talking a whole lot, just a couple hits on a joint.

 

[Bizarro Frog]

I have no real scientific data behind my opinion but I don't buy the Gateway Drug argument as a reason for prohibition. Over the course of my life it was pretty easy to figure who was going to stop at alcohol and weed. The ones that moved on to the harder stuff kind of always seemed destined to take that path. I think pain pills are a different story and those hooked some people that might not have ever gone down that path. As far as medical reasons for using THC cannabis I have known cancer patients and people with mental health issues that have claimed they benefited from it. There is also a whole group of stressed out people for various reasons that eat a gummy to help them sleep. They would rather do that than take a prescription that makes them have crazy dreams or sleepwalk and do stuff they have no memory of.

 

[tcudoc]

I don't believe he was making a correlation. I believe he was arguing against those who might think there would be a correlation between legalized marijuana and a reduction in pain med overdoses when the numbers would seem to indicate in CO that is not the case.

Well stated. That was exactly the point. The information came from a pain physician who runs a rehab clinic. I cannot speak to conflicts he might have, but we serve together on a pain medicine board certification board and you have to be relatively free of industry conflicts to get on the board. He states that things are really bad in Colorado at the present time.
WRT the graph, there is not agreement on the board about the issue either. Lots of smart people on both sides of the issue. The point was exactly as Country Frog stated it. It has nothing to say about whether or not it is a gateway drug or anything else. Just that it will not likely solve the opioid crisis, as some pitched that it might (by giving safer alternatives). In fact, it may make it worse...or the spikes could be true / true and unrelated.

 

[satis1103]

Let's just be frank.

The real issue is not whether the taxation after legalization lands on the "underwhelming" or "miraculous" sides of the spectrum, or in between. It's probably in between but that's immaterial to me.

The issue is not whether a black market stops (it won't, nor do I care) or whether it is an effective panacea or anything close (it's probably not, but if wider-studied could have interesting applications) .

To me and millions of others, the issue is that this substance never should have been prohibited in the first place. We've been criminalizing individuals who in MOST cases have simply wanted a gentle alternative to alcohol. It is not an effective prohibition either. Anyone who wants to smoke weed in Texas already is. Many cops don't even care because they know that practically this is a low concern versus malicious and violent crime.

Babysitting functions are the least useful of governmental actions. We are all grown adults, MOST of whom have tried this before, almost all of whom know where this plant falls on the "bad decisions" scale. Is it optimal? Of course not. Sober happiness is the optimal path. But we know it ain't reefer madness either and like many issues in the country I wish we could grow the scheiss up and just be practical stewards of individual freedom.

 

[CountryFrog]

Let's just be frank.

The real issue is not whether the taxation after legalization lands on the "underwhelming" or "miraculous" sides of the spectrum, or in between. It's probably in between but that's immaterial to me.

The issue is not whether a black market stops (it won't, nor do I care) or whether it is an effective panacea or anything close (it's probably not, but if wider-studied could have interesting applications) .

To me and millions of others, the issue is that this substance never should have been prohibited in the first place. We've been criminalizing individuals who in MOST cases have simply wanted a gentle alternative to alcohol. It is not an effective prohibition either. Anyone who wants to smoke weed in Texas already is. Many cops don't even care because they know that practically this is a low concern versus malicious and violent crime.

Babysitting functions are the least useful of governmental actions. We are all grown adults, MOST of whom have tried this before, almost all of whom know where this plant falls on the "bad decisions" scale. Is it optimal? Of course not. Sober happiness is the optimal path. But we know it ain't reefer madness either and like many issues in the country I wish we could grow the scheiss up and just be practical stewards of individual freedom.

Totally agree as it pertains to marijuana. The cost in policing it in both dollars and lives effected is not worth whatever return we might be getting. And that's why I'm much more interested in the next step with all this and what other drugs may be legalized at some point. I think it's basically a given that marijuana will be legal everywhere at some point.

 

[LSU Game Attendee]

I don't believe he was making a correlation. I believe he was arguing against those who might think there would be a correlation between legalized marijuana and a reduction in pain med overdoses when the numbers would seem to indicate in CO that is not the case.

WRT the graph, there is not agreement on the board about the issue either. Lots of smart people on both sides of the issue. The point was exactly as Country Frog stated it. It has nothing to say about whether or not it is a gateway drug or anything else. Just that it will not likely solve the opioid crisis, as some pitched that it might (by giving safer alternatives). In fact, it may make it worse...or the spikes could be true / true and unrelated.

Thanks for clarifying- my lizard brain sees all CO measures generally accelerating with time, post CO legalization, and infers correlation.

Doc, did you get a read on the board re: universal ability to prescribe marijuana?

 

[Horny4TCU]

For me personally, the stuff I have smoked is definitely not your grandpa's weed... I went to Colorado and California in 2018 and smoked two or three different strains that weren't even around 10 years ago when I was in college. It was claimed to be a 25%+ THC, which whatever the actual percentage was, was enough for me to be melting like a stick of butter on a big ol' pile of flap jacks after a couple tokes.

I randomly check out what is available in legal states, and now they have strains claiming 30%+ THC. Now, is that too much? My thought process is let the breeders come up with more potent strains. Especially for medical reasons, the higher percentage just means less needs to be smoked to get the same effect, which would help increase the "healthiness" by requiring less puffs.

 

[Stables Bartender]

I have smoked on and off since high school back in the late 60's. While at TCU in the early 70's the "Freeks" snuck a 10 foot long paper Mache joint onto the old quad at homecoming that said "Smoke the Longhorns" We have never stopped people from smoking it in the 55 years I have been around. It is time that the "marijuana madness" movie stop dictating our laws.

As for me now I have RA and the drugs' give me some unbelievable side effects (indigestion after most meals, back and muscle spasms as well as several others) I will smoke a small bowel and it relaxes me to the point that the indigestion stops my spasms are not as bad but some of the minor side effects are still there. TAX it, income will be more than they are receiving right now.

Who really gives a *hit if I want to sit at home and smoke a bowel or a joint or if I want to sip on my Johnnie Walker Blue. Can't Stop in from coming in for over 50 years, Legalize it.

 

[WIN]

yes on pot, gambling and prostitution

 

[Horny4TCU]

yes on pot, gambling and prostitution

 

[tcudoc]

For me personally, the stuff I have smoked is definitely not your grandpa's weed... I went to Colorado and California in 2018 and smoked two or three different strains that weren't even around 10 years ago when I was in college. It was claimed to be a 25%+ THC, which whatever the actual percentage was, was enough for me to be melting like a stick of butter on a big ol' pile of flap jacks after a couple tokes.

I randomly check out what is available in legal states, and now they have strains claiming 30%+ THC. Now, is that too much? My thought process is let the breeders come up with more potent strains. Especially for medical reasons, the higher percentage just means less needs to be smoked to get the same effect, which would help increase the "healthiness" by requiring less puffs.

Our board is a certification board, not a regulatory board. So we just evaluate a candidate's knowledge base and construct exams. We have nothing to do with licensing, rules, or regulations. The graph was just something informational shared in an email group as an FYI. Sorry for not being more clear.

 

[BrewingFrog]

For me personally, the stuff I have smoked is definitely not your grandpa's weed... I went to Colorado and California in 2018 and smoked two or three different strains that weren't even around 10 years ago when I was in college. It was claimed to be a 25%+ THC, which whatever the actual percentage was, was enough for me to be melting like a stick of butter on a big ol' pile of flap jacks after a couple tokes.

I randomly check out what is available in legal states, and now they have strains claiming 30%+ THC. Now, is that too much? My thought process is let the breeders come up with more potent strains. Especially for medical reasons, the higher percentage just means less needs to be smoked to get the same effect, which would help increase the "healthiness" by requiring less puffs.

Who knew that CRISPR genetics geeks were stoners?

On my first trip to a "Dispensary" in Boulder, the helpful girl behind the counter was rambling through the differentiation between Sativa and whatever other strain formed the root basis for the two families of weed, and then expanding on the likely effects each further interestingly named plant would produce, what amounts to use to get there, etc. I stood there glassy-eyed for a bit, and she said, "Do you have a question?"

"No, not really. My previous experience with all this was some years ago, and the most common varietal back then was known as 'Oaxacan Ditch Weed.'"

In all honesty, I'd rather have a snoot of fine whiskey or rum.

 

[Horny4TCU]

Who knew that CRISPR genetics geeks were stoners?

On my first trip to a "Dispensary" in Boulder, the helpful girl behind the counter was rambling through the differentiation between Sativa and whatever other strain formed the root basis for the two families of weed, and then expanding on the likely effects each further interestingly named plant would produce, what amounts to use to get there, etc. I stood there glassy-eyed for a bit, and she said, "Do you have a question?"

"No, not really. My previous experience with all this was some years ago, and the most common varietal back then was known as 'Oaxacan Ditch Weed.'"

In all honesty, I'd rather have a snoot of fine whiskey or rum.

Haha, the funny part is, I don't think this is even with the use of CRISPR. Just selective breeding efforts that are able to be utilized, now that it's state legal. I think there are some efforts to do genetic tracing to identify strains and lineage, but they aren't using any editing to my knowledge. Once it goes legal federally, I'm sure big pharma will start using CRISPR to wipe out the little guys.

 

[tcudoc]

Totally agree as it pertains to marijuana. The cost in policing it in both dollars and lives effected is not worth whatever return we might be getting. And that's why I'm much more interested in the next step with all this and what other drugs may be legalized at some point. I think it's basically a given that marijuana will be legal everywhere at some point.

I agree. Marijuana is a minor issue. I worry though, that this will be only the first step, as was discussed above. I feel strongly that no amount of heroin should ever be considered safe. Same with meth, IV fentanyl, ketamine, PCP and multiple other substances. Those drugs are instantly addicting and will lead to nothing constructive and will likely destroy lives if allowed. It will not only destroy the lives of those who abuse them, but also the lives of family, friends, and others who have to care for them or those who become victims of their criminal activity that these drugs often lead to.
I do not believe that "recreational" meth, heroin, or IV fentanyl is a real thing. once you are taking it, you are changed forever. There is PET scan evidence to show permanent changes in brain signaling and cravings. Some are in recovery, but they are always at risk of complete and total relapse at any moment. Those relapses often result in them being found dead. The specialty I work in is acutely tied to this issue, so I must be very aware of my colleagues. Everyone is susceptible. Trying a small amount of these drugs just to "see what it feels like" is not the same as smoking a little pot. That's why dealers are always willing to let you try the first time (so I have heard). Once you try, they know they have a long term customer. It is a steep escalation and the subsequent highs are never as good as the first, but the user is always seeking it, so they escalate higher and higher.
My best friend in high school was the most prolific drug dealer in our school (to his credit, he never even offered me drugs). He was also one of the smartest people I knew (scored a 1430 on SAT with no prep at all-yet never went to college). He wanted to go to medical school and actually inspired me to look into it. His upbringing was very different than mine and drugs were a big part of his parents' lives, so it was not a big surprise that he got caught up in it. He got a mid 6 figure salary job with his dad's real estate company, but then started using heroin. He embezzled several hundreds of thousands from the company before getting caught and losing everything. His brother even donated a kidney to him. That eventually failed him too and he died in his mid forties.
I have seen colleagues get caught up in drugs and lose their careers that they had studied for 12-14 years to get to. I know other physicians who died from overdoses, leaving behind spouses and kids.
I had a couple of in laws with similar drug issues. I have seen it in family, friends, colleagues, patients, etc. It is terrible. Having a kid get messed up in these drugs may be worse than having a child die. They will never be the same and they will almost never be trustworthy again. They will steal from you, they will lie, they will abuse you. Anything to serve their need. Eventually, they will likely become completely dependent on you for basic needs such as money, food, clothing, shelter. If you buy them anything of real value, they will likely trade or sell it for more drug. Picture 80+ year old parents still providing daily needs for their two >60 year old kids who have been on welfare their entire adult life. It is sad to see. I pray that my kids never go down that path.

 

[Horny4TCU]

I agree. Marijuana is a minor issue. I worry though, that this will be only the first step, as was discussed above. I feel strongly that no amount of heroin should ever be considered safe. Same with meth, IV fentanyl, ketamine, PCP and multiple other substances. Those drugs are instantly addicting and will lead to nothing constructive and will likely destroy lives if allowed. It will not only destroy the lives of those who abuse them, but also the lives of family, friends, and others who have to care for them or those who become victims of their criminal activity that these drugs often lead to.
I do not believe that "recreational" meth, heroin, or IV fentanyl is a real thing. once you are taking it, you are changed forever. There is PET scan evidence to show permanent changes in brain signaling and cravings. Some are in recovery, but they are always at risk of complete and total relapse at any moment. Those relapses often result in them being found dead. The specialty I work in is acutely tied to this issue, so I must be very aware of my colleagues. Everyone is susceptible. Trying a small amount of these drugs just to "see what it feels like" is not the same as smoking a little pot. That's why dealers are always willing to let you try the first time (so I have heard). Once you try, they know they have a long term customer. It is a steep escalation and the subsequent highs are never as good as the first, but the user is always seeking it, so they escalate higher and higher.
My best friend in high school was the most prolific drug dealer in our school (to his credit, he never even offered me drugs). He was also one of the smartest people I knew (scored a 1430 on SAT with no prep at all-yet never went to college). He wanted to go to medical school and actually inspired me to look into it. His upbringing was very different than mine and drugs were a big part of his parents' lives, so it was not a big surprise that he got caught up in it. He got a mid 6 figure salary job with his dad's real estate company, but then started using heroin. He embezzled several hundreds of thousands from the company before getting caught and losing everything. His brother even donated a kidney to him. That eventually failed him too and he died in his mid forties.
I have seen colleagues get caught up in drugs and lose their careers that they had studied for 12-14 years to get to. I know other physicians who died from overdoses, leaving behind spouses and kids.
I had a couple of in laws with similar drug issues. I have seen it in family, friends, colleagues, patients, etc. It is terrible. Having a kid get messed up in these drugs may be worse than having a child die. They will never be the same and they will almost never be trustworthy again. They will steal from you, they will lie, they will abuse you. Anything to serve their need. Eventually, they will likely become completely dependent on you for basic needs such as money, food, clothing, shelter. If you buy them anything of real value, they will likely trade or sell it for more drug. Picture 80+ year old parents still providing daily needs for their two >60 year old kids who have been on welfare their entire adult life. It is sad to see. I pray that my kids never go down that path.

This ^^^ scares the hell out of me. It's why I have only, and will only smoke the devil's lettuce. Yet alcohol can be just as addictive as these substances. Knowing that not everyone can handle drugs and alcohol the same way, makes me nervous for legalization, but at the same time we are all consenting adults. We have seen the effects of alcohol abuse for centuries now, it's never easy on families and friends, would the same become true if we legalized other drugs? The good news, no one has ever died from pot overdose, so decriminalizing cannabis seems like a safe step.

 

[satis1103]

I agree. Marijuana is a minor issue. I worry though, that this will be only the first step, as was discussed above. I feel strongly that no amount of heroin should ever be considered safe. Same with meth, IV fentanyl, ketamine, PCP and multiple other substances. Those drugs are instantly addicting and will lead to nothing constructive and will likely destroy lives if allowed. It will not only destroy the lives of those who abuse them, but also the lives of family, friends, and others who have to care for them or those who become victims of their criminal activity that these drugs often lead to.
I do not believe that "recreational" meth, heroin, or IV fentanyl is a real thing. once you are taking it, you are changed forever. There is PET scan evidence to show permanent changes in brain signaling and cravings. Some are in recovery, but they are always at risk of complete and total relapse at any moment. Those relapses often result in them being found dead. The specialty I work in is acutely tied to this issue, so I must be very aware of my colleagues. Everyone is susceptible. Trying a small amount of these drugs just to "see what it feels like" is not the same as smoking a little pot. That's why dealers are always willing to let you try the first time (so I have heard). Once you try, they know they have a long term customer. It is a steep escalation and the subsequent highs are never as good as the first, but the user is always seeking it, so they escalate higher and higher.
My best friend in high school was the most prolific drug dealer in our school (to his credit, he never even offered me drugs). He was also one of the smartest people I knew (scored a 1430 on SAT with no prep at all-yet never went to college). He wanted to go to medical school and actually inspired me to look into it. His upbringing was very different than mine and drugs were a big part of his parents' lives, so it was not a big surprise that he got caught up in it. He got a mid 6 figure salary job with his dad's real estate company, but then started using heroin. He embezzled several hundreds of thousands from the company before getting caught and losing everything. His brother even donated a kidney to him. That eventually failed him too and he died in his mid forties.
I have seen colleagues get caught up in drugs and lose their careers that they had studied for 12-14 years to get to. I know other physicians who died from overdoses, leaving behind spouses and kids.
I had a couple of in laws with similar drug issues. I have seen it in family, friends, colleagues, patients, etc. It is terrible. Having a kid get messed up in these drugs may be worse than having a child die. They will never be the same and they will almost never be trustworthy again. They will steal from you, they will lie, they will abuse you. Anything to serve their need. Eventually, they will likely become completely dependent on you for basic needs such as money, food, clothing, shelter. If you buy them anything of real value, they will likely trade or sell it for more drug. Picture 80+ year old parents still providing daily needs for their two >60 year old kids who have been on welfare their entire adult life. It is sad to see. I pray that my kids never go down that path.

I 100% agree with doc that meth, heroin, et al do not have a safe use or dose scenario. I am not in favor of legalizing these, and I believe narcotic prescription substances should be controlled as well.

In this country we've often lumped weed in with much worse things and demonized the whole lot of "illegal drugs" with the same brush, so many cannot distinguish between them when discussing social issues. But they are very different.

Hell, I wish we could have gone back and just said no to alcohol, but that ship is beyond sailed, we tried that to much failure.

 

[Eight]

I agree. Marijuana is a minor issue. I worry though, that this will be only the first step, as was discussed above. I feel strongly that no amount of heroin should ever be considered safe. Same with meth, IV fentanyl, ketamine, PCP and multiple other substances. Those drugs are instantly addicting and will lead to nothing constructive and will likely destroy lives if allowed. It will not only destroy the lives of those who abuse them, but also the lives of family, friends, and others who have to care for them or those who become victims of their criminal activity that these drugs often lead to.
I do not believe that "recreational" meth, heroin, or IV fentanyl is a real thing. once you are taking it, you are changed forever. There is PET scan evidence to show permanent changes in brain signaling and cravings. Some are in recovery, but they are always at risk of complete and total relapse at any moment. Those relapses often result in them being found dead. The specialty I work in is acutely tied to this issue, so I must be very aware of my colleagues. Everyone is susceptible. Trying a small amount of these drugs just to "see what it feels like" is not the same as smoking a little pot. That's why dealers are always willing to let you try the first time (so I have heard). Once you try, they know they have a long term customer. It is a steep escalation and the subsequent highs are never as good as the first, but the user is always seeking it, so they escalate higher and higher.
My best friend in high school was the most prolific drug dealer in our school (to his credit, he never even offered me drugs). He was also one of the smartest people I knew (scored a 1430 on SAT with no prep at all-yet never went to college). He wanted to go to medical school and actually inspired me to look into it. His upbringing was very different than mine and drugs were a big part of his parents' lives, so it was not a big surprise that he got caught up in it. He got a mid 6 figure salary job with his dad's real estate company, but then started using heroin. He embezzled several hundreds of thousands from the company before getting caught and losing everything. His brother even donated a kidney to him. That eventually failed him too and he died in his mid forties.
I have seen colleagues get caught up in drugs and lose their careers that they had studied for 12-14 years to get to. I know other physicians who died from overdoses, leaving behind spouses and kids.
I had a couple of in laws with similar drug issues. I have seen it in family, friends, colleagues, patients, etc. It is terrible. Having a kid get messed up in these drugs may be worse than having a child die. They will never be the same and they will almost never be trustworthy again. They will steal from you, they will lie, they will abuse you. Anything to serve their need. Eventually, they will likely become completely dependent on you for basic needs such as money, food, clothing, shelter. If you buy them anything of real value, they will likely trade or sell it for more drug. Picture 80+ year old parents still providing daily needs for their two >60 year old kids who have been on welfare their entire adult life. It is sad to see. I pray that my kids never go down that path.

science hater, i am sure the state of oregon consulted some highly regarded social scientist before inputting their new law stressing rehab or punishment and allowing tolerable small amounts of these perfectly harmless drugs

 

[Pharm Frog]

I 100% agree with doc that meth, heroin, et al do not have a safe use or dose scenario. I am not in favor of legalizing these, and I believe narcotic prescription substances should be controlled as well.

In this country we've often lumped weed in with much worse things and demonized the whole lot of "illegal drugs" with the same brush, so many cannot distinguish between them when discussing social issues. But they are very different.

Hell, I wish we could have gone back and just said no to alcohol, but that ship is beyond sailed, we tried that to much failure.

Prescriptions are “controlled” by the fact that they are prescriptions and when prescribed they are legal already. I’ve not heard anyone advocating for OTC status for Rx narcotics but who knows what Oregon may do.