• The KillerFrogs

FWST: An elite eight in college football? The case for and against expanding the playoffs.

froginmn

Full Member
I think everything would have to change. Other than Army Navy the regular season ends in November. That gives you approximately six weeks to get three playoff weekends in before school starts. The first round at home site of the 1-4 seeds. I would assume visitor tickets would be greatly restricted, an advantage to the higher seeds. I would also see the semis being at a predetermined mid continent NFL site, and the final being at a similar or different site. So not necessarily at traditional bowl sites. As for travel, just like baseball and basketball the venues are predetermined so plan around that. As for tickets, NCAA starts selling tickets months before so availability becomes an after market crap shoot, participating teams receiving some that TCU could sell based on priority. But rest assured if TCU made the semi or the final there would be a bunch available aftermarket. Keep in mind TCU might also have a pre-sale based on contingencies as in the past.
Yeah this would theoretically work but I don't know how the Rose Bowl committee will feel about changing its game to be a weak or non traditional matchup. And schools would lose control of tickets. This board is complaining about non fans being in good seats in our stadium.

Also, teams 5-8 go from cool bowl experience to expecting to lose a game they can't attend in Ohio.

I think the playoffs would essentially have to become a Super Bowl type event, where it would be more made for TV. I'm not a fan of that.
 

flyfishingfrog

Active Member
Yeah this would theoretically work but I don't know how the Rose Bowl committee will feel about changing its game to be a weak or non traditional matchup. And schools would lose control of tickets. This board is complaining about non fans being in good seats in our stadium.

Also, teams 5-8 go from cool bowl experience to expecting to lose a game they can't attend in Ohio.

I think the playoffs would essentially have to become a Super Bowl type event, where it would be more made for TV. I'm not a fan of that.
Seriously? You would rather play Cal at the Alamo bowl for nothing but bragging rights instead of having a shot to beat Georgia or LSU to get closer to winning an NC?

i would trade our Peach bowl victory for a place in the playoffs in a New York minute

would you rather be OU and in the CFP getting beat or playing in San Antonio or a NYC bowl nobody remembers but us a year later?
 

Dogfrog

Active Member
As much fun as I had at the Rose Bowl, maybe the time has come to move on after 100+ years? Maybe you could incorporate that venue into the playoff, but overall the priority should be the game, the schools and their fans, not the fat cat bowls. IMO.
 

froginmn

Full Member
Seriously? You would rather play Cal at the Alamo bowl for nothing but bragging rights instead of having a shot to beat Georgia or LSU to get closer to winning an NC?

i would trade our Peach bowl victory for a place in the playoffs in a New York minute

would you rather be OU and in the CFP getting beat or playing in San Antonio or a NYC bowl nobody remembers but us a year later?
I'm not trying to be difficult but there are obvious HUGE obstacles to making this work. Big bowl games today are a great reward for kids, as Patterson said in the article. The author's plan is to keep the NY6 bowls as quarterfinals and semis, moving them to CCG weekend.

That means that this year you take away Baylor's chance in the B12 CCG (OU clearly goes ahead of them), and take away the chance of any other team in several conferences, replacing the on the field result with a poll. Who's going to get the nod if there isn't a H to H result? The blue bloods. And TCU is left having to win the conference during the regular season.

And you're going to move the Rose parade to December 6? Who's going if they don't know where their game is until a week before? That parade is nationally televised on two networks on NY day.

And yes, from the perspective of a fan, you take away my Peach Bowl trip with my daughter and replace it with tOSU, either in one of four locations that I don't have a flight or hotel for (with a week's notice) or at tOSU, where there won't be enough tickets for me. And my daughter can't go because of school finals, or we make a two day trip that is a lot less fun. For hard core CFB fans, it's interesting. But for families that always make the trip, you ice them out. I have loved my NY6/BCS bowl experiences. We aren't comparing to an Alamo Bowl.
 
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froginmn

Full Member
As much fun as I had at the Rose Bowl, maybe the time has come to move on after 100+ years? Maybe you could incorporate that venue into the playoff, but overall the priority should be the game, the schools and their fans, not the fat cat bowls. IMO.
I don't disagree and I'm not trying to be difficult. Just waiting for a scenario without major difficulties. For the reasons mentioned it's worse for fans. Games during the school year or at undetermined sites, sites where the home team controls all tickets, etc.
 

Dogfrog

Active Member
I'm not trying to be difficult but there are obvious HUGE obstacles to making this work. Big bowl games today are a great reward for kids, as Patterson said in the article. The author's plan is to keep the NY6 bowls as quarterfinals and semis, moving them to CCG weekend.

That means that this year you take away Baylor's chance in the B12 CCG (OU clearly goes ahead of them), and take away the chance of any other team in several conferences, replacing the on the field result with a poll. Who's going to get the nod if there isn't a H to H result? The blue bloods. And TCU is left having to win the conference during the regular season.

And you're going to move the Rose parade to December 6? Who's going if they don't know where their game is until a week before? That parade is nationally televised on two networks on NY day.

And yes, from the perspective of a fan, you take away my Peach Bowl trip with my daughter and replace it with tOSU, either in one of four locations that I don't have a flight or hotel for (with a week's notice) or at tOSU, where there won't be enough tickets for me. For hard core CFB fans, it's interesting. But for families that always make the trip, you ice them out. I have loved my NY6/BCS bowl experiences. We aren't comparing to an Alamo Bowl.

I don’t think anybody suggested there would be no bowl games outside the playoff. That’s fine, but the playoff would likely need to be managed outside the traditional bowl setup.
 

Eight

Member
These are the things that nobody really considers, and the logistics of adding another round of games is a major issue. And comparing it to a basketball or baseball tournament is stupid. These are events with 60-70k people, not 5-10k.

Here is another one....if home fields are used for the quarterfinal games, every single school will have to have contingency plans in place to host a game on a few weeks notice. I don’t know what all goes into planning that but I know it’s not something that is all that simple. And 90% of schools will have to do it knowing there is probably < 1% chance they’d ever actually host a game.

please stop with this as smaller programs and nfl teams somehow handle these impossible tasks and since this would be an ncaa event they would handle the majority of the logistics which they do for multiple events, hundreds of teams, and losses of spectators each and every year without any of the problems you like to imagine
 

froginmn

Full Member
please stop with this as smaller programs and nfl teams somehow handle these impossible tasks and since this would be an ncaa event they would handle the majority of the logistics which they do for multiple events, hundreds of teams, and losses of spectators each and every year without any of the problems you like to imagine
That's the depth of your thought? NFL teams play in their own stadiums, all of their season ticket holders get seats, and hardly anybody travels.

If you think that's the same...
 

Wexahu

Full Member
That's the depth of your thought? NFL teams play in their own stadiums, all of their season ticket holders get seats, and hardly anybody travels.

If you think that's the same...

Yep. If it's so simple why do they announce NCAA basketball 1st/2nd round and Regional sites three years in advance and Final Four sites 7 years in advance? I'm not saying that much time is necessary, it is most definitely excessive, but way more goes into staging these kind of events than people realize, especially if it is to be done right. You are exactly right about how comparing this to the NFL is silly. There is one neutral site game in the NFL and it's as much a social event and a celebration of excess as it is a football game.

Expanding the college playoffs does make a little more sense if they want to ditch the "Bowl Games serving as quarterfinals and semifinal games" idea, but it still doesn't make much sense. Take this year for example. We don't need to see Baylor play Oklahoma again in a playoff, they already lost to them twice. We don't need to see Georgia in a playoff, they got destroyed by LSU in their last game of the year. Same with Wisconsin, they got beat by OSU fairly convincingly, what the heck do we need to see that again for?
 

Dogfrog

Active Member
Yep. If it's so simple why do they announce NCAA basketball 1st/2nd round and Regional sites three years in advance and Final Four sites 7 years in advance? I'm not saying that much time is necessary, it is most definitely excessive, but way more goes into staging these kind of events than people realize, especially if it is to be done right. You are exactly right about how comparing this to the NFL is silly. There is one neutral site game in the NFL and it's as much a social event and a celebration of excess as it is a football game.

Expanding the college playoffs does make a little more sense if they want to ditch the "Bowl Games serving as quarterfinals and semifinal games" idea, but it still doesn't make much sense. Take this year for example. We don't need to see Baylor play Oklahoma again in a playoff, they already lost to them twice. We don't need to see Georgia in a playoff, they got destroyed by LSU in their last game of the year. Same with Wisconsin, they got beat by OSU fairly convincingly, what the heck do we need to see that again for?

We wouldn’t see Baylor / OU a third time because there would be no CCG. The lead time on basketball sites is because cities / venues are willing to bid well in advance for the opportunity. I’m sure football venues / cities would do the same for football.
 

Eight

Member
That's the depth of your thought? NFL teams play in their own stadiums, all of their season ticket holders get seats, and hardly anybody travels.

If you think that's the same...

here is what you do, the same thing every other freaking level of college football does and play the first two rounds at the home of your highest seeds and the final at a designated spot,.

works at the other levels and would work at this level.

you and wex act like this is curing cancer or balancing the us governments budget

simply holding events and you and wex might find this hard to believe, but there are smart people who actually get paid money to do this type of thing and answer those impossible questions of yours and solve your insurmountable problems

crazy i know.

key is you are not going to make everyone happy, it will impact the major bowls, but this isn't about the bowls and change can actually happen with a little imagination, smarts, and hardwork
 

Eight

Member
Yep. If it's so simple why do they announce NCAA basketball 1st/2nd round and Regional sites three years in advance and Final Four sites 7 years in advance? I'm not saying that much time is necessary, it is most definitely excessive, but way more goes into staging these kind of events than people realize, especially if it is to be done right. You are exactly right about how comparing this to the NFL is silly. There is one neutral site game in the NFL and it's as much a social event and a celebration of excess as it is a football game.

Expanding the college playoffs does make a little more sense if they want to ditch the "Bowl Games serving as quarterfinals and semifinal games" idea, but it still doesn't make much sense. Take this year for example. We don't need to see Baylor play Oklahoma again in a playoff, they already lost to them twice. We don't need to see Georgia in a playoff, they got destroyed by LSU in their last game of the year. Same with Wisconsin, they got beat by OSU fairly convincingly, what the heck do we need to see that again for?

wex, you really don't have much imagination and fear change and the unknown.

sad thing is it doesn't take anymore energy to think about what is possible than fretting about the impossible
 

flyfishingfrog

Active Member
Yep. If it's so simple why do they announce NCAA basketball 1st/2nd round and Regional sites three years in advance and Final Four sites 7 years in advance? I'm not saying that much time is necessary, it is most definitely excessive, but way more goes into staging these kind of events than people realize, especially if it is to be done right. You are exactly right about how comparing this to the NFL is silly. There is one neutral site game in the NFL and it's as much a social event and a celebration of excess as it is a football game.

Expanding the college playoffs does make a little more sense if they want to ditch the "Bowl Games serving as quarterfinals and semifinal games" idea, but it still doesn't make much sense. Take this year for example. We don't need to see Baylor play Oklahoma again in a playoff, they already lost to them twice. We don't need to see Georgia in a playoff, they got destroyed by LSU in their last game of the year. Same with Wisconsin, they got beat by OSU fairly convincingly, what the heck do we need to see that again for?
Geez - either you just don’t care to understand or just won’t admit your argument is flawed

if you were right - then March madness would have failed and gone back to 16 teams only

the CWS would have no regionals

and neither pro baseball or football would have wildcard teams

baseball can manage to pull off a play in game within 24 hours but college football can’t manage a home game for a P5 with 14 days notice?

dumb
 

flyfishingfrog

Active Member
I don't disagree and I'm not trying to be difficult. Just waiting for a scenario without major difficulties. For the reasons mentioned it's worse for fans. Games during the school year or at undetermined sites, sites where the home team controls all tickets, etc.
Still don’t get all of that being worse than not getting to make the playoffs
 

froginmn

Full Member
Geez - either you just don’t care to understand or just won’t admit your argument is flawed

if you were right - then March madness would have failed and gone back to 16 teams only

the CWS would have no regionals

and neither pro baseball or football would have wildcard teams

baseball can manage to pull off a play in game within 24 hours but college football can’t manage a home game for a P5 with 14 days notice?

dumb
Don't "you and Wex" me. I came in to figure out how this could work, and I haven't heard a good idea yet. Yours is the worst because 6 of the top 8 teams don't even go to a bowl.

Let me explain it based on some of our own experiences.

In 2009, the eight team playoff, with the structure that all P5 champs are in and one G5 is in but locked to 6-8 seed (suggested in this thread) means that these teams would have been in.

1 Alabama
2 Texas
7 Oregon
8 Ohio State
9 Georgia Tech

3 Cincinnati gets in as the G5 rep, and they are the 6 seed.

Florida is in as #5.

Does #4 TCU get in as a second G5? If so, they are probably behind Florida and all the P5 champs, and Cincy. That puts us at 8, traveling to Alabama.

In 2010, as the top G5, we are seeded 6 and instead of going to the Rose Bowl, I can show the pictures from our trip to Madison WI (actually I'm probably not high enough in priority points so I won't get seats). And some of the people who do get seats will sell them on StubHub, giving Maniac a coronary at age 19.

I'd love it if there were a logical and fair way to do this, but giving up the big money bowls where lots of people travel and spend money, and the CCGs where people do similar, in exchange for Baylor at LSU (where it's a home game and Baylor gets 2,000 tickets) doesn't seem to bring the same financial windfall. I can't see a ton of eyeballs on that game, and guess that the SEC CCG (Georgia LSU) along with bowls bring in more money.

Lots of fans travel to LA for a Rose Bowl, as we did in 2011. We spent lots of cash.

Adding one televised round of 1 vs 8 doesn't bring in a ton of eyeballs and is a money losing proposition.
 

Eight

Member
Don't "you and Wex" me. I came in front to figure out how this could work, and I haven't heard a good idea yet. Yours is the worst because 6 of the top 8 teams don't even go to a bowl.

Let me explain it based on some of our own experiences.

In 2009, the eight team playoff, with the structure that all P5 champs are in and one G5 is in but locked to 6-8 seed (suggested in this thread) means that these teams would have been in.

1 Alabama
2 Texas
7 Oregon
8 Ohio State
9 Georgia Tech

3 Cincinnati gets in as the G5 rep, and they are the 6 seed.

Florida is in as #5.

Does #4 TCU get in as a second G5? If so, they are probably behind Florida and all the P5 champs, and Cincy. That puts us at 8, traveling to Alabama.

In 2010, as the top G5, we are seeded 6 and instead of going to the Rose Bowl, I can show the pictures from our trip to Madison WI (actually I'm probably not high enough in priority points so I won't get seats). And some of the people who do get seats will sell them on StubHub, giving Maniac a coronary at age 19.

I'd love it if there were a logical and fair way to do this, but giving up the big money bowls where lots of people travel and spend money, and the CCGs where people do similar, in exchange for Baylor at LSU (where it's a home game and Baylor gets 2,000 tickets) doesn't seem to bring the same financial windfall. I can't see a ton of eyeballs on that game, and guess that the SEC CCG (Georgia LSU) along with bowls bring in more money.

Lots of fans travel to LA for a Rose Bowl, as we did in 2011. We spent lots of cash.

Adding one televised round of 1 vs 8 doesn't bring in a ton of eyeballs and is a money losing proposition.

your last sentence says all I need to know about your thought process on this
 

froginmn

Full Member
your last sentence says all I need to know about your thought process on this
So you think CFB isn't about money?

Ok-then-look-away.gif


BTW, your plan takes away our Fiesta Bowl, our Rose Bowl, and our Peach Bowl. Simple, right?
 

Wexahu

Full Member
here is what you do, the same thing every other freaking level of college football does and play the first two rounds at the home of your highest seeds and the final at a designated spot,.

works at the other levels and would work at this level.

you and wex act like this is curing cancer or balancing the us governments budget

simply holding events and you and wex might find this hard to believe, but there are smart people who actually get paid money to do this type of thing and answer those impossible questions of yours and solve your insurmountable problems

crazy i know.

key is you are not going to make everyone happy, it will impact the major bowls, but this isn't about the bowls and change can actually happen with a little imagination, smarts, and hardwork

OK, let's pretend that there are ZERO logistical concerns.....I still wouldn't like an expanded playoffs and don't think it's necessary. College football has bar none the best regular season in sports, there are basically elimination games every weekend. I love the fact that there is so little margin for error and that every game is critical. How many truly competitive games do teams like Ohio State, Alabama, Clemson and Oklahoma play every year? Three? Four? Maybe five in some cases? I don't really want a system where a team can lose two of those and still be basically locked into a playoff spot. That's what makes the regular season so good, no team can afford to slip up much. No system is absolutely perfect but there isn't much wrong with the system currently in place. With very few exceptions, those additional games would be games that don't really need to be played because the pecking order is decided in the regular season.

If Alabama loses to Auburn and LSU they don't deserve a chance to play for a national championship IMO. Ditto for Wisconsin if they lose to Ohio State and Iowa. This year Oklahoma wasn't even competitive against LSU and now we'd be talking about Baylor being a playoff team, and they had two tries against OU and lost both. In most every year it'd just be adding games that aren't necessary to determine a champion.

The NCAA basketball tournament is a fun event but the fact that basically every decent team makes the tournament does make the regular season kind of an afterthought. What is the intrigue in a February matchup between two really good teams? The outcomes are kind of irrelevant because come March every team starts over and plays a single elimination tournament, and that's really all the casual fan cares about . Outside of TCU games I for the most part don't even watch college basketball, I just wait until mid-March.
 
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