• The KillerFrogs

2023-2024 European Football Thread

Purp

Active Member
If that doesn’t sum up Tottenham, I don’t know what does...
Pretty sure you're referring to the own goal against Liverpool. That one still stings and, you're right, that's precisely the type of step-on-your-pecker type of stuff that has plagued Tottenham forever. It's what made the Cubbies endearing too.
 

Purp

Active Member
Well the “Der Klassiker” has become the Der Struggle. What a choke job by Borussia so far. I get their backline is essentially walking wounded but wow.
I watched that one and was stunned. Dortmund aren't that bad and Bayern aren't that good. Crazy how that one turned out.
 

Purp

Active Member
You’ll get a lot of arguments Pharm, but really, you hit on a lot of the main points. One thing to note is that while they may play harder for their country, they are arguably more tired during the WC because it’s after a long season. So you can see a bit of a rub there.

The players are familiar with each other but the coaching systems and coaches change so often, I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on that affecting things but you never know.

For me, personally, I have found the EPL lacking in excitement as of late. The quality of play is good but just falls flat to me. Plus, like you alluded to, some players may not play as hard as often, they may only make efforts during contract years (hello Theo Walcott!) and because the EPL generates the most money, they can pay the best and their depth is ridiculous so there ends up being tremendous parity. I enjoy the Bundesliga matches far more, the atmosphere just seems far better and I can actually discern very easily true skill differential and quality. Plus their games just seem far more wide open, which I enjoy at times. You may wish to watch one of theirs to see how it compares.

And you’ll have to watch the Champions League final this year. I’d be interested to see how you feel it compares to the WC events as you may find it more similar with its play and excitement.

Originally posted in response to @Pharm Frog so it's written for him. The original was just too long for even me to want to read and this bit made more sense quoting this post.

I still prefer the EPL to the other top leagues in Europe only because, though still very top heavy, there's more depth at the top than the other leagues. For the past 20 years (since I started college and have been able to follow European soccer) you've seen a dominant run from Man U and Chelsea, but the very top seems to turn over more frequently in England. Before Man U and Chelsea you had some strong years from Arsenal. Recently Man City have usurped top billing and Liverpool appear positioned to be elite there for a long time possibly starting with a title this year. Similarly, Tottenham have made a case that they're a threat to win the title for several years now and their new ground may be the impetus needed to push them over the top. All 6 of these clubs seem very committed to winning and spending (some certainly more than others) so you've got a strong top third of the league that provides for a lot more entertaining matches.

And Leicester City emerged a few years ago out of nowhere to win the title and they've remained just outside the top 6 ever since. Everton is another club that you'd expect to come around soon and make a splash with Liverpool's resurgence. The Merseyside Derby is one of the most bitter rivalries in sport and has a deep Catholic vs. Protestant divide to it going back to the early days of the league. You know Everton won't sit idly by while Liverpool dominate them forever. The point is, not only does the EPL have a top 6 sides who could all win it each year there are also some other clubs with a chance and reason to make the investment required to compete at that level.

Spain (La Liga) is essentially Real Madrid and Barca every year. I think a club not named Barca or RM has won the league once or twice in the last 20 years.

Germany (Bundesliga) is basically Bayern Munchen and Borussia Dortmund with a heavy lean toward Bayern. The top of the Bundesliga isn't even as evenly distributed as La Liga between the two dominant clubs. Also like La Liga, I think there have only been one or two champions not named Bayern or Dortmund in the last 20 years.

Hiphopfroggy loves Serie A (Italy), but it's also very similar in that you can pretty much bet going into the season Juventus will win with Inter Milan in striking distance with a chance to take the title. Every once in a while you'll see a dalliance from AC Milan to add a 3rd competitor, but that's only happened a few times in the last 20 years. Every time I watch a Serie A match it just seems like a stadium full of Tech fans taking in a fairly uninspiring game of soccer because they have nothing better to do than set off smoke bombs and destroy stuff behind high chain linked fencing protecting players from fans. It doesn't appeal to me in the least bit.

League 1 (France) doesn't have the same top heaviness to it (though PSG have recently been dominant there for the last 6-8 years it seems), but it's just not near the caliber of the EPL, Bundesliga, Serie A, and La Liga IMO. I'd probably watch Dutch league (Eredivisie) before League 1 and they have a very top heavy problem there too with Ajax and PSV. I just tend to follow more American players in the Dutch league than the French league.
 
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Chongo94

Active Member
Not sure how I've missed getting into this thread for 2 weeks, but...

I think Chongo hit on the biggest key for me in a later response, but at this point in the season there is absolutely nothing to play for at this juncture of the season for most EPL clubs. There is no threat of relegation nor is there a chance to earn a spot in any of the European competitions.

In the EPL the top 4 finishers earn spots in the Champion's League (which is why you'll want to heed Chongo's advice and watch that from the semis through the final) and the next 2 go to the UEFA Cup (still can't accept the Europa League nomenclature). There are some qualification nuances that make it more complicated than just "the next 2", but that's a simpler way of putting it. It's technically possible the EPL could send 5 clubs to the Champion's League and the FA Cup and EFL Cup winners also auto-qualify for UEFA Cup. There are usually a total of 4 Champion's League qualifiers and 3 UEFA Cup qualifiers totaling 7 from England.

The bottom 3 clubs get relegated to the next lowest division so 3 of the bottom 4-5 clubs usually have a lot to play for right now. Presently, Huddersfield and Fulham have no prayer to stay up and only BHA appear close enough to Cardiff City to sweat relegation so only 2 of the bottom 4 have meaningful games to play.

The very top of the table has Liverpool and Man City as the only sides with a realistic shot at Premier League hardware. After that you have Tottenham, Chelsea, Man U, and Arsenal all within reach of the final 2 Champion's League spots in the top 4 so that battle is fierce. Whichever of those sides doesn't make it will qualify for UEFA Cup.

So 2 teams with hope near the relegation zone and 6 teams at the top of the table make 8 of the 20 EPL sides with meaningful matches. Behind them there is essentially nothing to play for beyond pride and developing some younger players/evaluating fringe guys. I think this accounts for most of what you observed.

Beyond that the comparison to the World Cup isn't really an apples to apples comparison. Most of the time I think players play harder for their club than they do their country. The lone exception to this general rule is the World Cup. It's the single greatest competition in sport for these players and there's an importance there that can't be rivaled by a club side. Also, the fact that it only takes place every 4 years means the very best in the world usually only get 3 chances to compete in that tournament and occasionally you'll see the most elite play in 4. That rarity adds some gravity to that competition that none of the others can match. Then you add the national pride to that tournament and it takes it way over the top for these guys.

Bingo. Great response.
 

Chongo94

Active Member
Pretty sure you're referring to the own goal against Liverpool. That one still stings and, you're right, that's precisely the type of step-on-your-pecker type of stuff that has plagued Tottenham forever. It's what made the Cubbies endearing too.

Haha definitely that own goal.
 

Chongo94

Active Member
Originally posted in response to @Pharm Frog so it's written for him. The original was just too long for even me to want to read and this bit made more sense quoting this post.

I still prefer the EPL to the other top leagues in Europe only because, though still very top heavy, there's more depth at the top than the other leagues. For the past 20 years (since I started college and have been able to follow European soccer) you've seen a dominant run from Man U and Chelsea, but the very top seems to turn over more frequently in England. Before Man U and Chelsea you had some strong years from Arsenal. Recently Man City have usurped top billing and Liverpool appear positioned to be elite there for a long time possibly starting with a title this year. Similarly, Tottenham have made a case that they're a threat to win the title for several years now and their new ground may be the impetus needed to push them over the top. All 6 of these clubs seem very committed to winning and spending (some certainly more than others) so you've got a strong top third of the league that provides for a lot more entertaining matches.

And Leicester City emerged a few years ago out of nowhere to win the title and they've remained just outside the top 6 ever since. Everton is another club that you'd expect to come around soon and make a splash with Liverpool's resurgence. The Merseyside Derby is one of the most bitter rivalries in sport and has a deep Catholic vs. Protestant divide to it going back to the early days of the league. You know Everton won't sit idly by while Liverpool dominate them forever. The point is, not only does the EPL have a top 6 sides who could all win it each year there are also some other clubs with a chance and reason to make the investment required to compete at that level.

Spain (La Liga) is essentially Real Madrid and Barca every year. I think a club not named Barca or RM has won the league once or twice in the last 20 years.

Germany (Bundesliga) is basically Bayern Munchen and Borussia Dortmund with a heavy lean toward Bayern. The top of the Bundesliga isn't even as evenly distributed as La Liga between the two dominant clubs. Also like La Liga, I think there have only been one or two champions not named Bayern or Dortmund in the last 20 years.

Hiphopfroggy loves Serie A (Italy), but it's also very similar in that you can pretty much bet going into the season Juventus will win with Inter Milan in striking distance with a chance to take the title. Every once in a while you'll see a dalliance from AC Milan to add a 3rd competitor, but that's only happened a few times in the last 20 years. Every time I watch a Serie A match it just seems like a stadium full of Tech fans taking in a fairly uninspiring game of soccer because they have nothing better to do that set off smoke bombs and destroy stuff behind high chain linked fencing protecting players from fans. It doesn't appeal to me in the least bit.

League 1 (France) doesn't have the same top heaviness to it (though PSG have recently been dominant there for the last 6-8 years it seems), but it's just not near the caliber of the EPL, Bundesliga, Serie A, and La Liga IMO. I'd probably watch Dutch league (Eredivisie) before League 1 and they have a very top heavy problem there too with Ajax and PSV. I just tend to follow more American players in the Dutch league than the French league.

Agree with a lot of this. Think we might need to add Wolverhampton to the potential group of 6-8 clubs in the EPL that consistently challenge. Obviously it depends on the next few years but they seem to have a solid plan for how they want to do things and money to spend.

The hope was that the new tv revenue sharing in Spain would ease that 2-3 horse race you see every year but it hasn’t yet sadly. Although you are starting to see the smaller teams compete more consistently within the rest of the league so maybe it is starting to make a small difference?

Serie A is sadly, as you mention and I say sadly because I remember the days when AC and Inter and Totti at Roma were awesome...the 90s Serie A I still remember fondly. I do enjoy how they show shots of the crowds during game lulls, if you get what I’m saying hey hey...

Bundesliga is still probably my favorite just because of the style of play and atmosphere but Bayern have made a mockery of it as late. They just cannibalize the rest of the league. Hertha should be a powerhouse and they aren’t. Wolfsburg and Schalke seem to only show up every other year...throw Leverkusen in there too maybe. Hoffenheim may start to taper off. Leipzig is trying but everyone hates them so no one would even enjoy it probably if they won.

I tell you what, if I just had Bezos type money, I’d buy Leeds and I’d buy Hamburg or Nuremberg (that 50+1 rule would be an issue though) and just pump so much money into them to disrupt the hegemony haha.
 

Purp

Active Member
Agree with a lot of this. Think we might need to add Wolverhampton to the potential group of 6-8 clubs in the EPL that consistently challenge. Obviously it depends on the next few years but they seem to have a solid plan for how they want to do things and money to spend.

The hope was that the new tv revenue sharing in Spain would ease that 2-3 horse race you see every year but it hasn’t yet sadly. Although you are starting to see the smaller teams compete more consistently within the rest of the league so maybe it is starting to make a small difference?

Serie A is sadly, as you mention and I say sadly because I remember the days when AC and Inter and Totti at Roma were awesome...the 90s Serie A I still remember fondly. I do enjoy how they show shots of the crowds during game lulls, if you get what I’m saying hey hey...

Bundesliga is still probably my favorite just because of the style of play and atmosphere but Bayern have made a mockery of it as late. They just cannibalize the rest of the league. Hertha should be a powerhouse and they aren’t. Wolfsburg and Schalke seem to only show up every other year...throw Leverkusen in there too maybe. Hoffenheim may start to taper off. Leipzig is trying but everyone hates them so no one would even enjoy it probably if they won.

I tell you what, if I just had Bezos type money, I’d buy Leeds and I’d buy Hamburg or Nuremberg (that 50+1 rule would be an issue though) and just pump so much money into them to disrupt the hegemony haha.
So many good English sides with history that could be bought. Leeds is a great one, but so is Villa, Sheffield (Wednesday or United), Blackburn... I'd probably buy Nottingham Forest if we're going for clubs not currently in the EPL, but Leeds is definitely best positioned today to make a run in the Premiership. Glad to see them likely to earn promotion. If we'd make a run at buying a Premeirship side I'd buy Fulham every time. Been a big fan of the Super Whites (no racist) since McBride went there and became their fans' favorite.

In Germany I might invest in Kaiserslautern due to the enormous American influence in that city. It's just a fun place to be and you don't have to speak German to get most things you want easily. Stuttgart and Frankfurt also work for American military reasons and they possess existing Bundesliga sides. If I wanted a club with existing fan support in good population centers and decent infrastructure already I'd look in Hamburg and Cologne too. I enjoyed the hell out of my first Bundesliga match at FC Koln against Energie Cottbus (talk about a club that rapidly disappeared from relevance). Koln is a fabulous city. I might also buy Gladbach if I had Bezos money just because it would be fun to say I owned Borussia Munchengladback. Maybe I'd buy Kasey Keller's castle too.
 

Chongo94

Active Member
So many good English sides with history that could be bought. Leeds is a great one, but so is Villa, Sheffield (Wednesday or United), Blackburn... I'd probably buy Nottingham Forest if we're going for clubs not currently in the EPL, but Leeds is definitely best positioned today to make a run in the Premiership. Glad to see them likely to earn promotion. If we'd make a run at buying a Premeirship side I'd buy Fulham every time. Been a big fan of the Super Whites (no racist) since McBride went there and became their fans' favorite.

In Germany I might invest in Kaiserslautern due to the enormous American influence in that city. It's just a fun place to be and you don't have to speak German to get most things you want easily. Stuttgart and Frankfurt also work for American military reasons and they possess existing Bundesliga sides. If I wanted a club with existing fan support in good population centers and decent infrastructure already I'd look in Hamburg and Cologne too. I enjoyed the hell out of my first Bundesliga match at FC Koln against Energie Cottbus (talk about a club that rapidly disappeared from relevance). Koln is a fabulous city. I might also buy Gladbach if I had Bezos money just because it would be fun to say I owned Borussia Munchengladback. Maybe I'd buy Kasey Keller's castle too.

Ha! I forgot about the castle!!
All good sides. Haven’t seen how Kaiserslautern is doing in 3 Liga this year. It’s a travesty they’re that far down.

I like the Fulham and Blackburn and Nottingham ideas.
 

Purp

Active Member
It was a beautiful match, IMO.
Like that of Yankees fans and Manchester United fans who don't actually live in New York or Manchester and wanted a team to cheer for, your opinion is of little value until you pick a team that has less than a 75% chance to win a league title every year. ;-)
 

tcujsauce

Active Member
Like that of Yankees fans and Manchester United fans who don't actually live in New York or Manchester and wanted a team to cheer for, your opinion is of little value until you pick a team that has less than a 75% chance to win a league title every year. ;-)

I did pick THFC in the EPL. I have a legit claim to Bayern fandom though as I’ve actually been to a match, and I picked them before I knew that they were the Deutscher Meister (don’t think I ever shared that full story... while following the World Cup back in 2010, picked Germany as my non-USMNT team to be a fan of. Fav player on Die Mannschaft was Bastian Schweinsteiger, bc he was awesome but mostly bc he has the most German name in history. He played for Bayern, so I decided to be a Bayern fan)
 

tcujsauce

Active Member
Ajax!! About to pull it out maybe? I’m just enjoying a call back from the 90s with this continued Ajax run.

Edit: they pulled it off. Ronaldo is dumped out haha. Good stuff.

I’ve become a very distant Ajax fan ever since my trip to Germany. There were a ton of them at the Paulaner tent surrounding our table (had a group stage match against Bayern at Allianz that day) and they were a blast to BS with.
 

Purp

Active Member
I did pick THFC in the EPL. I have a legit claim to Bayern fandom though as I’ve actually been to a match, and I picked them before I knew that they were the Deutscher Meister (don’t think I ever shared that full story... while following the World Cup back in 2010, picked Germany as my non-USMNT team to be a fan of. Fav player on Die Mannschaft was Bastian Schweinsteiger, bc he was awesome but mostly bc he has the most German name in history. He played for Bayern, so I decided to be a Bayern fan)
I'll allow it gif
 

Chongo94

Active Member
I did pick THFC in the EPL. I have a legit claim to Bayern fandom though as I’ve actually been to a match, and I picked them before I knew that they were the Deutscher Meister (don’t think I ever shared that full story... while following the World Cup back in 2010, picked Germany as my non-USMNT team to be a fan of. Fav player on Die Mannschaft was Bastian Schweinsteiger, bc he was awesome but mostly bc he has the most German name in history. He played for Bayern, so I decided to be a Bayern fan)

Schweinsteiger, as a new senior squad member, about a year or so after being promoted from the youth team, got in trouble for having a girl with him in Bayern’s sauna and hot tub after sneaking into the facility haha.
 
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dawg

Active Member
Anyone upset that MU was knocked out of the CL by Barcelona today?

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Ajax!! I’m just enjoying a call back from the 90s with this continued Ajax run.

Oh indeed. How awesome that Ajax, with a cast of homegrown talent, dumped out Madrid and Juve the past two rounds, clubs put together at immense expense. It warms my heart. Though I won't apply the "Dawg Jinx" of rooting for them, I will not be displeased if they lift the Big Cup at the Wanda Metropolitano. It's a bit sad that the giant clubs will gut their roster, but Ajax will do what Ajax always does: produce an insane amount of talent.
 
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