SCOTUS Rules Against NCAA and In Favor of Athletes

[Mean Purple]

Don’t you mean private colleges? I don’t think Big State U is going anywhere.

I don't see most of them, private or public, going anywhere. I do see them cutting back on the over paid profs. Meaning they'll start bringing in profs who are more in line with the many reasonably paid ones.
I also see them reducing the number of degrees. They have had a run on liberal arts degrees over the past 10 or so years. More so than normal. Folks are seeing tighter budgets these days and their kids will be urged to major in fields that are seen as more of a job producer.

Gotta wonder if we are at the point where businesses wake up and start hiring more folks who have an associates in business and bring them in an apprenticeship like program.

 

[Eight]

I will take a listen for sure. Have been looking for more info on this. Do they ever mention OpenDorse? That is who TCU hired last year to work on this stuff.

don't remember the group, but it wasn't opendorse.

one name i remember is dusty stanfield who was/is connected to andy dalton's foundation back when andy was in cincy.

interview is the 3rd hour and started near the bottom of the hour so i guess 25-30 minutes in to the hour's segment.

 

[Eight]

Not sure I listened to what I was supposed to, but if these athletes in those other sports are so marketable on social media and other platforms, etc. (and I don't doubt they are) why don't they just turn pro and be done with the NCAA, if the NCAA is just in their way? They could still go to college if they want.

would guess in some cases there isn't a pro market for them. if you listened to the interview one niche' market that was mentioned was girls' lacrosse

not sure if there is a pro league for women's lacrosse,. also consider as flyfishing and i discussed yesterday, a student on a full academic scholarship to tcu could put up ads stating there are in the honors college at tcu, majoring in engineering and offering tutoring services for middle & high school students in advanced science and math.

one of the members of the frogs national championship rifle team however, could not do the same offering shooting lessons.

you fall were you do on this which is fine, but this is going to happen and the schools that can pitch that they are going to help their student athletes prepare for these opportunities no different than earning a degree are going to have a recruiting advantage

additionally, the ncaa is only in their way so to speak because they have refused to recognize a train is headed their way and the only way the ncaa becomes obsolete is if they refuse to adapt and change.

as pointed out in the interview, it has been some 3 years since the california law was passed and the only thing to this point we know the ncaa has done is fight this in court and now are getting together in dallas to determine next steps. epic fail in advanced planning by the ncaa

 

[Froglaw]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/21/sup...hletes-in-compensation-dispute-with-ncaa.html

"Everyone agrees that the NCAA can require student athletes to be enrolled students in good standing. But the NCAA's business model of using unpaid student athletes to generate billions of dollars in revenue for the colleges raises serious questions under the antitrust laws," Kavanaugh wrote.

He added that it was "highly questionable whether the NCAA and its member colleges can justify not paying student athletes a fair share of the revenues on the circular theory that the defining characteristic of college sports is that the colleges do not pay student athletes."

Haven't read the opinion and I probably will not read it.

But it seems to me that the SCt is ignoring the fact that a Scholarship is a private contract between the College and the Athlete.

You play athletics, study, research, play in the school orchestra, etc and TCU will give you a scholarship.

A student is not an employee.

So TCU makes money on football game day.

Just as Corporate America makes money from its employees efforts.

The difference is the manner of compensation.

An employee gets a wage,

A Research fellow gets a grant.

A band member gets a scholarship.

A student gets an achedemic scholarship.

A football player gets a scholarship.

Each student is free to pay tuition and not be obligated to perform in exchange for the scholarship and its benefits.

SCt may have left out that most schools don't make "millions" on women's laCrosse, men's water polo, crewing, etc.

So the NCAA is going to force compensation to just a few student athletes and not others?

Clearly there is a quid pro quo and both parties are free to opt out of the current system.

 

[HToady]

Justice Kvanaugh eludes to the fact that the business model used by the NCAA would be ilegal, if, in fact operated like a business. Basically saying they reap enormous revenue, while compensating their employees (student athletes) below minimum wage. Probably more true where education at a state school is considerabley less.

But isn't this true, in most cases, only for football? Don't most schools operate in the red in all othr sports? Should a female soccor star be compensated, when her sport actually costs the university money? So shouldn't this ruling be only for male, football athletes?

 

[flyfishingfrog]

Justice Kvanaugh eludes to the fact that the business model used by the NCAA would be ilegal, if, in fact operated like a business. Basically saying they reap enormous revenue, while compensating their employees (student athletes) below minimum wage. Probably more true where education at a state school is considerabley less.

But isn't this true, in most cases, only for football? Don't most schools operate in the red in all othr sports? Should a female soccor star be compensated, when her sport actually costs the university money? So shouldn't this ruling be only for male, football athletes?

100% the problem - they are taking a subset of "athletes" and even really focusing on a small set in that group.

Did Johnny Football individually generate millions for Aggy - probably. Did his lineman or the backup safety - not really other than they were part of the team.

How much additional revenue did Deuce generate for TCU over another QB? the only way to determine that is to assume another QB would have performed worse and thus less fan interest - but we don't know that for sure. And like Johnny - would he have deserved that money alone or should it be spread to the guys that blocked, ran and caught for him or the guys on D that kept him in the game so he could win?

but then trying to extrapolate that across all athletics in all schools is crazy and lazy.

And if you are on a partial scholarship like baseball and thus paying part of your own way - why don't we just stop the Title IX [ deposit from a bull that looks like Art Briles ] and allows schools to fully fund all sports instead before we expect an athlete to try and generate NIL money to support themselves? Curious if the SCOTUS ever ruled on Title IX and how it hurts male athletes given this decision.....

How much would you pay Eli Nunez or Braeden Taylor to be a spokesperson for your business really? Or is it more likely you would thrown them a 20-spot to record a happy birthday message for you kid - which isn't going to change much about their "financial" position when they are shelling out $30k to attend TCU after a half scholarship....

 

[Eight]

Justice Kvanaugh eludes to the fact that the business model used by the NCAA would be ilegal, if, in fact operated like a business. Basically saying they reap enormous revenue, while compensating their employees (student athletes) below minimum wage. Probably more true where education at a state school is considerabley less.

But isn't this true, in most cases, only for football? Don't most schools operate in the red in all othr sports? Should a female soccor star be compensated, when her sport actually costs the university money? So shouldn't this ruling be only for male, football athletes?

the ruling doesn't open the door for the school to pay athletes

the ruling opens the door for athletes to make money off their name, image, and/lileness

example, the frogs goal keeper last year was not only an elite player at the college level, but a member of the mexican national women's team. she has played at an international level.

under this ruling she could for example hold a goal keeping camp with the head instructor being an keeper with international experience.

you don't think that wouldn't draw interest?

 

[flyfishingfrog]

the ruling doesn't open the door for the school to pay athletes

the ruling opens the door for athletes to make money off their name, image, and/lileness

example, the frogs goal keeper last year was not only an elite player at the college level, but a member of the mexican national women's team. she has played at an international level.

under this ruling she could for example hold a goal keeping camp with the head instructor being an keeper with international experience.

you don't think that wouldn't draw interest?

she could have held a goal keeping camp before or worked at a soccer camp also - just not advertised that she is a TCU goal keeper in doing it. You notice the TCU baseball camp uses players but doesn't advertise which players or even that they will have current players involved.

I realize it seems stupid and agree that is a dumb limitation - but it does not keep them from doing the event.

NIL will also allow her to get an endorsement for Dos Equis or a clothing company for being the National teams goalkeeper - which is probably more lucrative for someone like her - but again she is the exception not the rule.

Ruling isn't going to really do squat for the rest of her team really but everyone is acting like it fixes the bigger issue

 

[Sweat Equity]

NCAA in apparent denial about impact of Monday’s Supreme Court ruling

https://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa-apparent-denial-impact-monday-103631840.html

Following Monday’s gutting of its authority by the U.S. Supreme Court, the NCAA needs to work through the five stages of grief, quickly.

Currently, the governing body of college sports seems to be stuck firmly in denial.

Via Michael Smith of Sports Business Journal, NCAA president Mark Emmert wants the D-I Council (which convened yesterday and will meet again today) to pass name, image and likeness rules that will apply to all member institutions. Per the report, Emmert wants “new NIL rules that will be more restrictive than the six state laws that take effect July 1.”

That would be a gigantic mistake, a total misreading of Monday’s 9-0 unanimous decision and the clear warning from the concurring opinion filed by Justice Brett Kavanaugh.

...

 

[Eight]

NCAA in apparent denial about impact of Monday’s Supreme Court ruling

https://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa-apparent-denial-impact-monday-103631840.html

Following Monday’s gutting of its authority by the U.S. Supreme Court, the NCAA needs to work through the five stages of grief, quickly.

Currently, the governing body of college sports seems to be stuck firmly in denial.

Via Michael Smith of Sports Business Journal, NCAA president Mark Emmert wants the D-I Council (which convened yesterday and will meet again today) to pass name, image and likeness rules that will apply to all member institutions. Per the report, Emmert wants “new NIL rules that will be more restrictive than the six state laws that take effect July 1.”

That would be a gigantic mistake, a total misreading of Monday’s 9-0 unanimous decision and the clear warning from the concurring opinion filed by Justice Brett Kavanaugh.

...

the man is well worth his 2.7M salary

 

[steelfrog]

Haven't read the opinion and I probably will not read it.

But it seems to me that the SCt is ignoring the fact that a Scholarship is a private contract between the College and the Athlete.

You play athletics, study, research, play in the school orchestra, etc and TCU will give you a scholarship.

A student is not an employee.

So TCU makes money on football game day.

Just as Corporate America makes money from its employees efforts.

The difference is the manner of compensation.

An employee gets a wage,

A Research fellow gets a grant.

A band member gets a scholarship.

A student gets an achedemic scholarship.

A football player gets a scholarship.

Each student is free to pay tuition and not be obligated to perform in exchange for the scholarship and its benefits.

SCt may have left out that most schools don't make "millions" on women's laCrosse, men's water polo, crewing, etc.

So the NCAA is going to force compensation to just a few student athletes and not others?

Clearly there is a quid pro quo and both parties are free to opt out of the current system.

Yeah except what you are ignoring and the SCT is not ignoring is that there is unequal bargaining power because the universities, through the artifice of the NCAA, is unlawfully acting in concert to restrict the free ability of the employee/students to freely contract. Through a whole bunch of rules designed to keep the employee/students powerless and under the thumbs of the universities, while they make bundles of money on the backs of the workers who are the only ones putting anything at risk in this deal.

Steel can tell you a million stories of guys who sacrificed their health and bodies for the school who never got a dime for it, and some of whom are dead right now directly because of it. Malcolm Gladwell hit the nail on the head.

 

[flyfishingfrog]

Yeah except what you are ignoring and the SCT is not ignoring is that there is unequal bargaining power because the universities, through the artifice of the NCAA, is unlawfully acting in concert to restrict the free ability of the employee/students to freely contract. Through a whole bunch of rules designed to keep the employee/students powerless and under the thumbs of the universities, while they make bundles of money on the backs of the workers who are the only ones putting anything at risk in this deal.

Steel can tell you a million stories of guys who sacrificed their health and bodies for the school who never got a dime for it, and some of whom are dead right now directly because of it. Malcolm Gladwell hit the nail on the head.

so curious where this "bundles of money" everyone keeps trying to talk about is landing? I sure would appreciate less calls about fund raising since we seem to be building a stockpile someplace...

Because TCU makes money on football and loses money on every other sport (if you allocate tv revenue to football which is why we have it to start) - so we tend to not make "bundles of money" overall in athletics - just in one sport.

I guess we could shut down everything else and then pay the football players to play - which is where this is going eventually after the majority of players realize that they are going to make a few hundred dollars from NIL (which will help a bit) and not the tens of thousands people are trying to act like dividing up the "bundles of money" pie would give.....

 

[steelfrog]

so curious where this "bundles of money" everyone keeps trying to talk about is landing? I sure would appreciate less calls about fund raising since we seem to be building a stockpile someplace...

Because TCU makes money on football and loses money on every other sport (if you allocate tv revenue to football which is why we have it to start) - so we tend to not make "bundles of money" overall in athletics - just in one sport.

I guess we could shut down everything else and then pay the football players to play - which is where this is going eventually after the majority of players realize that they are going to make a few hundred dollars from NIL (which will help a bit) and not the tens of thousands people are trying to act like dividing up the "bundles of money" pie would give.....

I bet you like that fancy $170mm stadjium. I bet you like it verr much.

Come on men; Gary and staff rake in prolly about $8 mil a year with no danger of crippling injury. And they make no plays on the field. That's about $95,000 per football player per year.

The endowment is $1.8bn. Lord knows what the real estate and improvements are worth.

All this so the "students" can spend 40+ hours a week practicing, working out, travelling etc, which is time that they cannot be studying while their competitors in class are, and eventually get a degree in something that is non challenging and non marketable because they couldn't pass an engineering or other such program because they are spending half their waking hours on the sport. And then only a fraction even get degrees at all, let's be generous and say 70%. And then no guarantee of a job after school. What a deal!

Also, why do these coaches stick around so long? There should be a limit like 10 years, then let some other young guys come in and feed at the trough for a while.

This whole thing is a house of cards that is going to come tumbling down right around your buttholes, and then you'll have to find something else to do besides sit our your big butts and stuff your fat faces.

 

[flyfishingfrog]

I bet you like that fancy $170mm stadjium. I bet you like it verr much.

Come on men; Gary and staff rake in prolly about $8 mil a year with no danger of crippling injury. And they make no plays on the field. That's about $95,000 per football player per year.

The endowment is $1.8bn. Lord knows what the real estate and improvements are worth.

All this so the "students" can spend 40+ hours a week practicing, working out, travelling etc, which is time that they cannot be studying while their competitors in class are, and eventually get a degree in something that is non challenging and non marketable because they couldn't pass an engineering or other such program because they are spending half their waking hours on the sport. And then only a fraction even get degrees at all, let's be generous and say 70%. And then no guarantee of a job after school. What a deal!

Also, why do these coaches stick around so long? There should be a limit like 10 years, then let some other young guys come in and feed at the trough for a while.

This whole thing is a house of cards that is going to come tumbling down right around your buttholes, and then you'll have to find something else to do besides sit our your big butts and stuff your fat faces.

the stadium wasn't paid for with "bundles of money" from athletics - it came from donors so dumb argument.

And again - your entire argument is focused on football - so I guess we can ignore how much the other sports cost and cancel them since they should not be subsidized by football players per this argument....that is not everyone getting what they deserve.

The endowment and athletics revenue don't cover the cost of TCU - that is why our tuition that you complain about is so high - remember....so I guess we can raise it even higher since we will now use the endowment earnings to help pay for football players? or to cover other sports since the revenue from football will only be for football? I am confused - what exactly is your plan for all of this?

 

[steelfrog]

the stadium wasn't paid for with "bundles of money" from athletics - it came from donors so dumb argument.

And again - your entire argument is focused on football - so I guess we can ignore how much the other sports cost and cancel them since they should not be subsidized by football players per this argument....that is not everyone getting what they deserve.

The endowment and athletics revenue don't cover the cost of TCU - that is why our tuition that you complain about is so high - remember....so I guess we can raise it even higher since we will now use the endowment earnings to help pay for football players? or to cover other sports since the revenue from football will only be for football? I am confused - what exactly is your plan for all of this?

Steel's plan is to operate the school like a real business and not like a plaything. The day of judgment is nigh, best start planning for it. A head coach makes no more than $500k which is still too much--surely a coach making that can deliver a .500 record in the B12 just like our coaches have at 10x that price.

Cut admin positions. Cut teacher salaries and positions. Go to more blended courses. Cut down on physical plant.

If Steel really were in charge there would be a Reckoning the likes of which has only been seen in the corporate world, and rarely in the private university world. And yet, TCU would be able to survive the coming storm.

 

[steelfrog]

OK steel finally read the opinion. Wow.

Basically the exact thing same thing that steel has been saying to you people for years, was the basis for the courts ruling. That is, the NCAA and its constituent universities, use the construct of “amateurism“ as a means to exploit young people. The court pointed out that the NCAA president makes $4 million, college athletic directors average more than $1 million in college football coaches make up to $11 million. Meanwhile young students who don’t have a job or income face penalties for receiving anything that goes beyond covering basic expenses.

It should be noted that the NCAA tried to make an appeal to it’s “tradition” of amateurism, and yet the opinion was written by a conservative jurist Neil Gorsuch. Even harsher in his criticisms was Brett Kavanaugh who one could argue is the most conservative of the judges who had some real zingers in his concurrence:

“ The NCAA‘s business model would be flatly illegal in almost any other industry in America.”

“ nowhere else in America can a business get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate.”

amen.

this will signal the death knell for the exploitative ncaa model. They will have to find a way to share the pie

 

[steelfrog]

NCAA acted quickly to try and pretend like they have some control over the situation:

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources...di-board-adopt-name-image-and-likeness-policy

 

[FBallFan123]

Some early NIL from the July and August…

 

[Froggish]

NIL era is squarely in full effect. Apparently TCU will be host a large NIL information meeting for Large Donors next week. Anyone here get invited to that?

Get your wallet and purses ready. The days of buying players is legal.