Really OT: TCU Tuition

[Endless Purple]

I had a HS friend from a middle class family that got into Yale and then earned a degree in Philosophy. He ended up being a major newscaster for ABC, then NBC. His name is Stone Philips (Dateline, etc.) Did his philosophy degree help inform his adult work? You bet it did. Would you have projected that when he entered Yale's philosophy program?

A college degree has a major impact on the individual. It teaches upper level thinking skills/critical thinking. It can often broaden one's perspective on humanity by including a diverse student body, where students think, work and play together. Some degrees have a 'trade' attached to them, eg STEM, and it is less obvious where some other degrees will lead.

TCU, as an educational institution, should understand and articulate this even better than I just did. A good education is the best "thing" that one can have in life. Students should follow their talents, desires and life's calling when they chose a major. No matter what they end up doing for a living, that degree will help.

But choosing a major is not the same as choosing a career. See the Stone Philips example. I graduated from TCU with a degree in music, and now I'm a physician. And yes, that music degree has broadly informed me as a physician. If I could rewind my life, I would not change my TCU degree choice.

I don't know any underwater basket weavers, teachers, ministers, dancers, musicians or social workers who are financially able to pay back a TCU-sized student loan. Does that make their work less valuable? Should TCU be excluding these people from their student body? Personally, I think that would be egregious and unethical. I think it would go against the soul (no, I don't mean 'sole') purpose of a university. A university is there to create thinkers, who then can figure out what they do with that education.

I think this is well stated and mirrors my thoughts mostly.

I have an art degree (technically design), I still ended up at NASA for 8 years with the shuttle program doing design and photo work.

 

[Endless Purple]

what happens if you create a bunch of debt-laden thinkers who end up loathing the university for taking advantage of them via the prestige and educational quality only to end up paying back that loan for the rest of their lives?

most teachers, musicians, social workers, etc. can’t naturally pay off a six figure college loan without parental help. This snowballs into other effects on the economy like mortgage demand and child birth rates (you are batshit if you have 4 kids with the current college costs)

what is more unethical? Minimizing the class size (enrollment) for lower wage social majors or maximizing revenue by enticing them to enroll at an exorbitant cost

As I have asked others, do you think TCU should cancel these majors as being too expensive and only offer high wage majors? No one is willing to say yes to this yet.



I don't believe either of your two choices are the only options.

 

[ECoastFrog]

I think this is well stated and mirrors my thoughts mostly.

I have an art degree (technically design), I still ended up at NASA for 8 years with the shuttle program doing design and photo work.

And this is the work of intelligence, which a college degree nurtures. You have made my point.

 

[ticketfrog123]

As I have asked others, do you think TCU should cancel these majors as being too expensive and only offer high wage majors? No one is willing to say yes to this yet.

I don't believe either of your two choices are the only options.

I don’t think they need to cancel it outright, but enrollment in “low-wage” majors as you call it needs to be frozen or stop growing. It’s irresponsible. Those students struggle to find jobs post graduation.

the crying and complaining from the school of music about not getting a disproportionate amount of funds from TCU to aid in their new building plans / concert hall over the past 5 years is ridiculous. They / fine arts have half as many students enrolled as college of science or Neeley, but 500x the fundraising problems.

wonder why

 

[westoverhillbilly]

I argue that many and likley most of us end up making our living in an area/vocation different from what we studied. Also, so much of our success depends upon how diligent, perceptive, hardworking and scrappy we are at our crafts and willingness to make changes.

We've all known capable people with high powered degrees (and high GPA's) that have been unsuccessful. Conversely, we've all known people with low powered degrees (or no degrees at all) who went into the world and did great.

In my opinion, a TCU degree from any of its programs gives one a good advantage to go make their way in the world, but it doesn't make it happen without effort and the seizing of opportunity.

 

[ECoastFrog]

what happens if you create a bunch of debt-laden thinkers who end up loathing the university for taking advantage of them via the prestige and educational quality only to end up paying back that loan for the rest of their lives?

most teachers, musicians, social workers, etc. can’t naturally pay off a six figure college loan without parental help. This snowballs into other effects on the economy like mortgage demand and child birth rates (you are batshit if you have 4 kids with the current college costs)

what is more unethical? Minimizing the class size (enrollment) for lower wage social majors or maximizing revenue by enticing them to enroll at an exorbitant cost

Third choice: Making tuition affordable for the middle class kid.

That alum who loathes TCU for somehow 'taking advantage' of him/her is shortsighted. I don't see anyone being "enticed." I don't see that TCU or any other school is 'tricking' folks into an education at their school.

And prestigious? I would reserve that term for the Ivys. TCU is a good school that I love, but many folks on the east coast haven't even heard of it (which has improved over the past 10 years or so, with the FB team gaining prominence.) Schools are upfront with their costs. Application will tell the student their actual costs (scholarships, if any.) Paying back the loan for life is largely based on the ridiculous tuition in combination with the person's career choice. I know. I have just stated the obvious.

I think TCU should be affordable for a middle income family. It certainly was in the 1970s. What's so different now? The cost at TCU (and many other schools) has gone up exponentially, well beyond the rate of inflation, over the past 40-50 years. Why? Does TCU now consciously believe that only the wealthy should educate their kids? I doubt TCU would actually say that, but it is a real consequence of their current tuition.

Because TCU is a private school, it has the right to tack in this direction. I, for one, think they are ultimately denigrating the value of a TCU education by making it largely unaffordable to middle class students. And that's what I think is unethical. "TCU is only for wealthy kids'" is the loathsome message.

I think if you're smart/talented enough to get into TCU, you should have an affordable 'middle class' tuition. TCU has a strong donor base, and from what I understand, is in great financial shape (thanks to GP, among others.) Because TCU could do this, but doesn't, is also unethical IMO.

'University' comes from the latin universitas magistrorum et scholarium, or guild/community of scholars and teachers. It does not mean 'community of rich folks gathered to learn.' And yes, there are scholars in all income brackets, including the impoverished, lower income and middle income. TCU should not only acknowledge, but embrace this.

 

[ECoastFrog]

I don’t think they need to cancel it outright, but enrollment in “low-wage” majors as you call it needs to be frozen or stop growing. It’s irresponsible. Those students struggle to find jobs post graduation.

the crying and complaining from the school of music about not getting a disproportionate amount of funds from TCU to aid in their new building plans / concert hall over the past 5 years is ridiculous. They / fine arts have half as many students enrolled as college of science or Neeley, but 500x the fundraising problems.

wonder why

A culture is largely defined by its arts. Both universities and churches/institutions of worship have funded the arts over the millennia. Not to make more money, but to provide inspiration, an important human. A rich culture is not solely focused on making money.

 

[froglash88]

Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now.

 

[tcudoc]

And yet you still have an affinity for TCU, support the teams, post on here, have a connection...
The problem is, with universities everywhere, that it's not about buckling down and getting to work, it's about having a two year party before buckling down....and that's the waste.

I’m a big fan of TCU, but I have four kids and none wanted to go to TCU. They did not see it as a value and got far better scholarships elsewhere. The reality is, for the degrees they were seeking, TCU was far overpriced and offered no advantage. They also found they had nothing in common with the average current TCU student. In essence, they weren’t trust fund babies. As stated previously, TCU is now for the extremely wealthy or the extremely poor who get full rides. Not really many students left who are middle class like I was when I attended. My parents were solidly middle class and able to assist me with my costs, so, even though we were living on beans and rice and scraping by as newly married young persons, both of our parents were very solid middle class financially and were a good safety net for us if we had gotten into financial dire straits.
I could have afforded to send my kids to TCU but chose to deemphasize it in the process because I did not see it as a valuable investment at the tuition costs they charge presently. I was genuinely relieved that none of my kids really wanted to go to TCU.

The junior college advantage is also not just financial. I think for premed students, there is a big push to “weed out” the not so serious students. The freshman biology and chemistry classes for premeds thin the herd by about 60-70%. So I had the advantage of arriving with 70 college credits under my belt and a better understanding of what the expectations are in serious college classes. I was also a couple of years older and lacked some of the distractions that most college students have. The downside is, I knew no one and clicks were well established and were difficult to break into.
I am glad I went the path I did because it worked well for me. If it was 10-15 years later, I would not have likely been able to attend due to cost.

 

[Frog-in-law1995]

I’m a big fan of TCU, but I have four kids and none wanted to go to TCU. They did not see it as a value and got far better scholarships elsewhere. The reality is, for the degrees they were seeking, TCU was far overpriced and offered no advantage. They also found they had nothing in common with the average current TCU student. In essence, they weren’t trust fund babies. As stated previously, TCU is now for the extremely wealthy or the extremely poor who get full rides. Not really many students left who are middle class like I was when I attended. My parents were solidly middle class and able to assist me with my costs, so, even though we were living on beans and rice and scraping by as newly married young persons, both of our parents were very solid middle class financially and were a good safety net for us if we had gotten into financial dire straits.
I could have afforded to send my kids to TCU but chose to deemphasize it in the process because I did not see it as a valuable investment at the tuition costs they charge presently. I was genuinely relieved that none of my kids really wanted to go to TCU.

The junior college advantage is also not just financial. I think for premed students, there is a big push to “weed out” the not so serious students. The freshman biology and chemistry classes for premeds thin the herd by about 60-70%. So I had the advantage of arriving with 70 college credits under my belt and a better understanding of what the expectations are in serious college classes. I was also a couple of years older and lacked some of the distractions that most college students have. The downside is, I knew no one and clicks were well established and were difficult to break into.
I am glad I went the path I did because it worked well for me. If it was 10-15 years later, I would not have likely been able to attend due to cost.

Oh god. Freshman chemistry flashbacks. 600 students. The old nightmares will likely return tonight.

 

[Horny4TCU]

Back to the question. Does TCU teach underwater basketweaving?

Not to my knowledge.

 

[Wexahu]

As I have asked others, do you think TCU should cancel these majors as being too expensive and only offer high wage majors? No one is willing to say yes to this yet.



I don't believe either of your two choices are the only options.

I don't think they should cancel them. I just don't think students should be borrowing money to attend TCU to study those majors.

 

[ticketfrog123]

A culture is largely defined by its arts. Both universities and churches/institutions of worship have funded the arts over the millennia. Not to make more money, but to provide inspiration, an important human. A rich culture is not solely focused on making money.

Our fine arts program is disproportionately large compared to overall enrollment vs. SMU, Vanderbilt, Boston College, Notre Dame, and Georgetown.

They can provide the same inspiration with a few less seats each year

 

[Endless Purple]

I don't think they should cancel them. I just don't think students should be borrowing money to attend TCU to study those majors.

Fair answer.

That means that only the wealthy students can study art, music, dance, anthropology, history, child development, education, english, film/tv, latin american studies, language, social work, etc... The problem is that this leads to a very elitist society by removing most minority students or lower/middle income white students from these majors. That is a major problem in society both historically and presently which is what helps lead to the racism issues of today. I would like to think TCU could be a leader in these issues as opposed to pushing them further along. I also don't believe the elitist support was part of the original goals of the Clarks when they founded the school.

 

[Eight]

Fair answer.

That means that only the wealthy students can study art, music, dance, anthropology, history, child development, education, english, film/tv, latin american studies, language, social work, etc... The problem is that this leads to a very elitist society by removing most minority students or lower/middle income white students from these majors. That is a major problem in society both historically and presently which is what helps lead to the racism issues of today. I would like to think TCU could be a leader in these issues as opposed to pushing them further along. I also don't believe the elitist support was part of the original goals of the Clarks when they founded the school.

really not much different than the uk where the lower class is placed on permanent unemployment and many of those in the arts are from wealthy families

 

[Endless Purple]

Our fine arts program is disproportionately large compared to overall enrollment vs. SMU, Vanderbilt, Boston College, Notre Dame, and Georgetown.

They can provide the same inspiration with a few less seats each year

Some of those programs give TCU international recognition, not to mention they bring in funding donations. When I was in school most of the art majors had a higher GPA in core classes than business or science majors. Not to mention, as ECoastFrog said, the impact on society without the cultural development.

 

[Wexahu]

Fair answer.

That means that only the wealthy students can study art, music, dance, anthropology, history, child development, education, english, film/tv, latin american studies, language, social work, etc... The problem is that this leads to a very elitist society by removing most minority students or lower/middle income white students from these majors. That is a major problem in society both historically and presently which is what helps lead to the racism issues of today. I would like to think TCU could be a leader in these issues as opposed to pushing them further along. I also don't believe the elitist support was part of the original goals of the Clarks when they founded the school.

Or students on scholarship.

I'll never believe that a kid borrowing $150-200,000 for an art or dance degree is a smart move. If TCU wants to start providing large scholarships to middle-class students to pursue those degrees in order to become a "leader", that is fine I guess.

 

[Endless Purple]

really not much different than the uk where the lower class is placed on permanent unemployment and many of those in the arts are from wealthy families

Yes, it is similar to them historically. It creates elitist divides.

 

[Eight]

Yes, it is similar to them historically. It creates elitist divides.

wait, i thought we want to be just like the uk

 

[Endless Purple]

Or students on scholarship.

I'll never believe that a kid borrowing $150-200,000 for an art or dance degree is a smart move. If TCU wants to start providing large scholarships to middle-class students to pursue those degrees in order to become a "leader", that is fine I guess.

That goes back to my point. There needs to be support to allow for all the majors I gave as an example to not have to pay $200,000. So many of those roles are important parts of society they need to be funded as such. Scholarships are an important part of that, and TCU does have many for the arts. I do not know how many for education, social work and similar type degrees. Beyond season tickets, my donations are targeted to the arts at TCU.

Does TCU become part of the elitist racist type culture or make strides to lead for a better balanced society...