No-huddle uptempo offense

[jake102]

Yeh the offense can move as quickly as they want, they just can't substitute. Makes sense to me. The bigger problem is that defenses have figured out the 2-3 plays that TCU uses when we go super quick (run off LT, run off RT, WR screen). We get a big 1st down, sprint up to the LOS, run one of these plays, and are facing a 2nd and 9 all in the span of 12 seconds.

 

[CountryFrog]

Yeh the offense can move as quickly as they want, they just can't substitute. Makes sense to me. The bigger problem is that defenses have figured out the 2-3 plays that TCU uses when we go super quick (run off LT, run off RT, WR screen). We get a big 1st down, sprint up to the LOS, run one of these plays, and are facing a 2nd and 9 all in the span of 12 seconds.

I don't disagree with what you're saying except I'd say the bigger issue we're having is that we're not blocking people on those plays. When we played OSU and blocked guys then those plays worked just fine.

 

[Wexahu]

I wonder if its delay in movement/direction may now be doing more harm than good.

When I watch Iowa State play defense the one thing I notice is that they don't commit early to anything.....usually always 3-down lineman with a couple LBs stationed right behind them....they don't appear to give anything for the offense to key on. They bait you to run, but their alignment requires guards to block in space, and as you say, running plays out of the shotgun/RPO offenses take a long time to develop and for the runner to get downhill, which plays right into their hands. So they bait you into doing stuff that isn't effective. Then when you pass, they retreat and flood the secondary with defenders and make you stay disciplined play after play after play and make you pay for impatience. Easier said than done, especially when your instinct is to try and hurry up and score.

I don't know, seems like defenses have adjusted to this style, and I'm not only saying this because of our struggles, I see it everywhere.

 

[4th. down]

frogs are in an akward transition offensively.

patterson is not in favor on the no huddle, hurry ups that have his defense back on the field in a short amount of time.

the offense right now doesn't have the line to control tempo by pounding the run game such as iowa state or texas

tempo can be used to simplify the reads for a quarterback who is struggling but that isn't going to happen at the start of games which are scripted.

this offense has been plagued by mistakes across that side of the ball and it isn't simply robinson and turnovers. penalties, missed chances in the passing game, poor play design, missed blocks, plus turnovers has killed chances in the 3 losses.

there are not simple answers and i am not sure how much can be fixed in season. my biggest concern is that all the problems can't be fixed due to staff loyalty and the decision to run an offense that doesn't come from the oc's background.

it doens't mean sonny can't adjust, but who does he lean on in the offensive staff to build an offense?

A good and realistic analysis of the current state. IF, we make a bowl, maybe a little tweaking but really nothing significant until spring............if then. GP desperately wants to make the playoffs at some point, but with the current climate, it ain't going to happen. Would other top coaches, ie, Saban, Dabo, Meyer, etc. make adjustments during mid season, yep.

 

[PO Frog]

When I watch Iowa State play defense the one thing I notice is that they don't commit early to anything.....usually always 3-down lineman with a couple LBs stationed right behind them....they don't appear to give anything for the offense to key on. They bait you to run, but their alignment requires guards to block in space, and as you say, running plays out of the shotgun/RPO offenses take a long time to develop and for the runner to get downhill, which plays right into their hands. So they bait you into doing stuff that isn't effective. Then when you pass, they retreat and flood the secondary with defenders and make you stay disciplined play after play after play and make you pay for impatience. Easier said than done, especially when your instinct is to try and hurry up and score.

I don't know, seems like defenses have adjusted to this style, and I'm not only saying this because of our struggles, I see it everywhere.

They absolutely bait you into running because the numbers appear to show that as the correct read. Also it’s really difficult to take to intermediate stuff when there is so much traffic in the secondary. Especially difficult when you can’t block their three or four man rush...

 

[Mean Purple]

Just wondering if anyone here thinks all of these uptempo, hurry-up offenses you see have kind of run their course and no longer provide any sort of advantage. Personally I think they maybe have and where it used to be a way for undermanned teams to change things up and give a better team a different look they aren't used to, nowadays everyone is prepared for them. The result now IMO is it just lengthens games and increases the # of possessions, which usually always favors the better team. Basically, it plays right into the hands of the very best teams because you now basically have to beat them at their own game for more possessions.

I know almost nobody actually huddles anymore (I'm not sure why though, if you're not going to hurry to get a play off, go ahead and huddle), but I'm talking the incessant need for almost every team to be enamored with "going fast". Is it just for the recruiting pitch now? I see teams like Iowa State and Kansas State that just seem to frustrate the heck out of teams by just taking their time, executing the little stuff, and burning the clock down thus shortening the game.....and wonder if that might be the better way to go. In my opinion, all the advantages to your offense that running hurry up gives you is offset by what it does to your defense.

A lot of DCs have figured out how to defend it. It is also hard to play complementary football with so much uptempo. Sooner or later, a team has to get physical. Especially if they want championships. Even with Boykin, they slowed it down some. He pointed to slowing it down as to why his play improved.

However, the tempo has little to do with the issues TCU is having. You still have to step into passes and secure the ball in uptempo offenses.

 

[Wexahu]

They absolutely bait you into running because the numbers appear to show that as the correct read.

And therein lies the problem IMO. I think defenses have learned how to force the offenses into doing what they want them to do, simply by what they show. They've learned that these simplified offenses and the plays that are run are keyed by a certain read, and they've learned how to disguise that read. So all the standing around and trying to decipher what the defense is doing to you and calling a play accordingly is playing right into the defenses hand. Defenses can move around all they want 2-3 seconds before a snap, offenses can't. Advantage defense if they know what the offenses keys are.

 

[Wexahu]

A lot of DCs have figured out how to defend it. It is also hard to play complementary football with so much uptempo. Sooner or later, a team has to get physical. Especially if they want championships. Even with Boykin, they slowed it down some. He pointed to slowing it down as to why his play improved.

However, the tempo has little to do with the issues TCU is having. You still have to step into passes and secure the ball in uptempo offenses.

The tempo to me doesn't give an offense an advantage anymore. That's my overall point. It seems like teams run uptempo just because that's kind of what you're supposed to do these days, there's little to no strategic benefit from it except in VERY short stretches when you can script 2-3 plays together against a defensive lineup you know you can exploit.

 

[jake102]

And therein lies the problem IMO. I think defenses have learned how to force the offenses into doing what they want them to do, simply by what they show. They've learned that these simplified offenses and the plays that are run are keyed by a certain read, and they've learned how to disguise that read. So all the standing around and trying to decipher what the defense is doing to you and calling a play accordingly is playing right into the defenses hand. Defenses can move around all they want 2-3 seconds before a snap, offenses can't. Advantage defense if they know what the offenses keys are.

Yeah that's a pretty good read on the situation. And Iowa State does it better than anyone, IMO. There were multiple times during the game where I thought we had a well designed play, only for the hole to close right as the ball was being snapped.

 

[jake102]

The tempo to me doesn't give an offense an advantage anymore. That's my overall point. It seems like teams run uptempo just because that's kind of what you're supposed to do these days, there's little to no strategic benefit from it except in VERY short stretches when you can script 2-3 plays together against a defensive lineup you know you can exploit.

I do think with a truly smart, quick thinking play caller it can be effective. But the offense has to move FAST, like lightning speed and the play calls have to be correct. A good example were the plays Cumbie called against UT where we went lightning speed, faked the WR screen, and Reagor slipped behind coverage. UT was in a totally busted coverage at that point mostly due to the speed and variation of the play. Ignore SRobinson throwing it directly to the UT player, it was a perfect example of the hurry up.

 

[satis1103]

When I watch Iowa State play defense the one thing I notice is that they don't commit early to anything.....usually always 3-down lineman with a couple LBs stationed right behind them....they don't appear to give anything for the offense to key on. They bait you to run, but their alignment requires guards to block in space, and as you say, running plays out of the shotgun/RPO offenses take a long time to develop and for the runner to get downhill, which plays right into their hands. So they bait you into doing stuff that isn't effective. Then when you pass, they retreat and flood the secondary with defenders and make you stay disciplined play after play after play and make you pay for impatience. Easier said than done, especially when your instinct is to try and hurry up and score.

I don't know, seems like defenses have adjusted to this style, and I'm not only saying this because of our struggles, I see it everywhere.

Agreed. I think the window is closing on this particular run strategy.

 

[Mean Purple]

The tempo to me doesn't give an offense an advantage anymore. That's my overall point. It seems like teams run uptempo just because that's kind of what you're supposed to do these days, there's little to no strategic benefit from it except in VERY short stretches when you can script 2-3 plays together against a defensive lineup you know you can exploit.

I think that is a real good view of where it is now.

 

[Mean Purple]

When I watch Iowa State play defense the one thing I notice is that they don't commit early to anything.....usually always 3-down lineman with a couple LBs stationed right behind them....they don't appear to give anything for the offense to key on. They bait you to run, but their alignment requires guards to block in space, and as you say, running plays out of the shotgun/RPO offenses take a long time to develop and for the runner to get downhill, which plays right into their hands. So they bait you into doing stuff that isn't effective. Then when you pass, they retreat and flood the secondary with defenders and make you stay disciplined play after play after play and make you pay for impatience. Easier said than done, especially when your instinct is to try and hurry up and score.

I don't know, seems like defenses have adjusted to this style, and I'm not only saying this because of our struggles, I see it everywhere.

They have been real good at coaching their dbs to not let their eyes get stuck in the backfield .

 

[Hoosierfrog]

A year or two back GP put a hold on the up tempo game as I recall. He said something about the defense couldn’t sustain anything when the O was scoring so fast. Seems there could be happy median.

 

[Pharm Frog]

I have absolutely no confidence in us huddling. None. I would expect that we'd get 12 delay-of-game penalties after spending our 3 timeouts each half and probably break the huddle with 14 players on at least 7 other occasions.

 

[4 Oaks Frog]

We don’t go fast except for the 1st drive.

MrMcgibblets is correct. Our up tempo is anything but. The pace with which we played in the Peach Bowl is what allowed us to beat the snot out of Ole’ Miss. We hit them fast, hard and often. We were snapping the ball with as much as 23 seconds left on the play clock. They didn’t know what the hell hit them. They couldn’t sub, and the D was gassed in the first quarter. It was a thing of beauty. If we had huddled and played their slow ass brand of ball, their D could have made a difference. As it was, they couldn’t get their breath. It can still be done today, but it is not in vogue. Quick snap, quick throw, quic handoff, swarm, swarm swarm. It worked then, and it will work now, if we can get the handle on the ball. I am convinced that if we had played Texas that way, we would have put them away early. Of course, you have a committed appreciation for the importance of holding onto the ball, which does not seem to be a prioriy. Just sayin’...
GO FROGS!
BEAT cheatin’ red!
Spit Blood~~<~<and [Baylor asshoe] & slow play!!

 

[FrogLifeYo]

Just wondering if anyone here thinks all of these uptempo, hurry-up offenses you see have kind of run their course and no longer provide any sort of advantage. Personally I think they maybe have and where it used to be a way for undermanned teams to change things up and give a better team a different look they aren't used to, nowadays everyone is prepared for them. The result now IMO is it just lengthens games and increases the # of possessions, which usually always favors the better team. Basically, it plays right into the hands of the very best teams because you now basically have to beat them at their own game for more possessions.

I know almost nobody actually huddles anymore (I'm not sure why though, if you're not going to hurry to get a play off, go ahead and huddle), but I'm talking the incessant need for almost every team to be enamored with "going fast". Is it just for the recruiting pitch now? I see teams like Iowa State and Kansas State that just seem to frustrate the heck out of teams by just taking their time, executing the little stuff, and burning the clock down thus shortening the game.....and wonder if that might be the better way to go. In my opinion, all the advantages to your offense that running hurry up gives you is offset by what it does to your defense.

Been making this point over and over. Trying out “possession” the opponent rather than out execute them...Not to mention defenses have become much more savvy at playing fast to

 

[More Frogs the Better]

I have absolutely no confidence in us huddling. None. I would expect that we'd get 12 delay-of-game penalties after spending our 3 timeouts each half and probably break the huddle with 14 players on at least 7 other occasions.

I assume there's some hyperbole in that but it does bring up a good point. You see plenty of huddles in the NFL but the changes in plays and protection appear to be almost completely called by the QB and the center, respectively, apparently based on calling more than one play in the huddle and then audibling into one or the other based on what the defense is showing. In college, most teams skip the huddle and look to the sideline for the changes. I don't see how you'd consistently have time to do both--especially given how long it seems to often take just to get the play call in. If I'm a college coach I probably prefer micromanagement to trusting a college kid to get all that right beyond letting them do the RPO's which I think they reduce pretty much to counting.

 

[Wexahu]

MrMcgibblets is correct. Our up tempo is anything but. The pace with which we played in the Peach Bowl is what allowed us to beat the snot out of Ole’ Miss. We hit them fast, hard and often. We were snapping the ball with as much as 23 seconds left on the play clock. They didn’t know what the hell hit them. They couldn’t sub, and the D was gassed in the first quarter. It was a thing of beauty. If we had huddled and played their slow ass brand of ball, their D could have made a difference. As it was, they couldn’t get their breath. It can still be done today, but it is not in vogue. Quick snap, quick throw, quic handoff, swarm, swarm swarm. It worked then, and it will work now, if we can get the handle on the ball. I am convinced that if we had played Texas that way, we would have put them away early. Of course, you have a committed appreciation for the importance of holding onto the ball, which does not seem to be a prioriy. Just sayin’...
GO FROGS!
BEAT cheatin’ red!
Spit Blood~~<~<and [Baylor asshoe] & slow play!!

Go watch that game again. We won with absolutely dominating defense, not because they couldn’t stop our offense. Yes, the offense made some plays but the lopsided score was 100% because of the defense.

 

[Wexahu]

I assume there's some hyperbole in that but it does bring up a good point. You see plenty of huddles in the NFL but the changes in plays and protection appear to be almost completely called by the QB and the center, respectively, apparently based on calling more than one play in the huddle and then audibling into one or the other based on what the defense is showing. In college, most teams skip the huddle and look to the sideline for the changes. I don't see how you'd consistently have time to do both--especially given how long it seems to often take just to get the play call in. If I'm a college coach I probably prefer micromanagement to trusting a college kid to get all that right beyond letting them do the RPO's which I think they reduce pretty much to counting.

I'm not sure you need to see what the defense is doing first. Just run the play that's called. Maybe throw in an option to audible if you just get a terrible look from the defense. Here's what I envision. Offense huddles, defense calls a set they are going to line up in but they have no idea how the offense is going to align because the offense hasn't tipped off who is going where. Offense breaks the huddle and relatively quickly gets to the line and runs the play. I say relatively quickly because the O can't get up there and look around for matchups because that defeats the purpose.

Anymore, I think the defense benefits more from seeing the offensive alignment than vice versa, because the defense can disguise their look right before the snap and mess up the read....much harder for the offense to do that. Advantage defense. Take that advantage away by not tipping off where you're lining up. Say they are going to key on Reagor. Well, if Reagor just stands out wide while everyone looks over for instructions that makes it easy. Imagine if the defense didn't know where he was going to be until 5 seconds before the snap? I might be crazy but it would seem like it would tip the advantage to the offense and negate defensive film study. And I know it's not as simple as it sounds.