BYU's Honor Code - Everybody on their band wagon

[Froglaw]

Some young BYU honor code student accused them of raping her.

Why anyone would subject themselves to a supremist regine known as BYU is beyond me?

Just a bunch of self-righteous nut jobs.

Peter Kranenburg
University Wire
09-06-2005
(The Daily Universe) (U-WIRE) PROVO, Utah -- A Provo, Utah, jury acquitted two former Brigham Young University football players Friday of charges alleging they raped a 17-year-old girl in their apartment last year after a night of drinking.

B.J. Mathis and Ibrahim Rashada left the courtroom innocent of all charges. Mathis and Rashada were found innocent on two counts of aggravated sexual assault, one count of obstruction of justice, and one count of furnishing alcohol to a minor.

"They are as innocent as they were when they first walked in here," said Jere Reneer, defense attorney for B.J. Mathis. "I've never felt …

 

[Mike Brooks]

That is the way they roll. Don't like it then don't go there. They are open and explicit about the code. I don't have a problem since they preach it prior to enrollment.

No one should care except those that go there.

Btw, all the military academies and all schools period have expelled kids for violating rules of conduct.

 

[geno]

That is the way they roll. Don't like it then don't go there. They are open and explicit about the code. I don't have a problem since they preach it prior to enrollment.

No one should care except those that go there.

Btw, all the military academies and all schools period have expelled kids for violating rules of conduct.

+1

 

[Marathonman1025]

That is the way they roll. Don't like it then don't go there. They are open and explicit about the code. I don't have a problem since they preach it prior to enrollment.

No one should care except those that go there.

Btw, all the military academies and all schools period have expelled kids for violating rules of conduct.

+2

 

[ectofrog]

That is the way they roll. Don't like it then don't go there. They are open and explicit about the code. I don't have a problem since they preach it prior to enrollment.

No one should care except those that go there.

Btw, all the military academies and all schools period have expelled kids for violating rules of conduct.

No one SHOULD tell others what they SHOULD care about.

I care a little, from the perspective that I think a lot of the kids who wind up going there are brainwashed to a certain extent, and they make agreements about how they're going to act when they're 18, sometimes 16 or 17 years old, that they're expected to keep for years. That the expectations of them are unreasonable matters...specifically because a 17 or 18 year old kid doesn't have a concept of how long 4-7 years is.

A kid, especially one like Davies, who doesn't share the moral belief structure behind BYU's rules in the first place, can easily get in over his head when signing this stuff, excited about playing ball for a fairly big-time sports school and not thinking about how long they are truly expected to go without sex, booze, tobacco, or even coffee.

That said, the kids should be more choosy. If BYU's offering them, that means there are PLENTY of places they can go play ball with a scholarship. Don't go to a place run by the Mormon Gestapo and you won't be in this boat.

 

[jake102]

expected to go without sex, booze, tobacco, or even coffee.

Wait, isn't this the exact formula for suicide?

 

[mietusjm]

A kid, especially one like Davies, who doesn't share the moral belief structure behind BYU's rules in the first place, can easily get in over his head when signing this stuff, excited about playing ball for a fairly big-time sports school and not thinking about how long they are truly expected to go without sex, booze, tobacco, or even coffee.

That said, the kids should be more choosy. If BYU's offering them, that means there are PLENTY of places they can go play ball with a scholarship. Don't go to a place run by the Mormon Gestapo and you won't be in this boat.

Uhh, Davies is from a little town called Provo, Utah, was raised Mormon and very much shares the belief structure behind BYU's rules. He slipped up, recognized it, and chose to confess without having been "caught."

No gestapo, no alternate set of rules for athletes. It's a tough rule, no doubt. BYU loses probably on average one high profile athlete each year due to that rule, and they don't lose the other 99.5% each year because it's not impossible to follow.

And I've never understood the criticism that BYU are "self righteous." Why? Because they have an honor code? Does that make the service academies self righteous as well? Just wondering.

 

[maximilian]

B.J. Mathis went to BHS when I did. That guy could fly out of the backfield. Wonder what he's up to nowadays.

 

[gatorfrog]

It's a stupid, horrible rule to try to force 18-22 year olds to follow. it's even stupider to mete out the punishments that BYU does for failings that are utterly human (Setting up to fail? Using guilt as an motivational tool?), and the stupidest thing at all is the fact that many of these kids are pressured to attend for religious reasons without being seriously offered an alternative.

The thing worth talking about is not that this BYU player or that BYU player was kicked off his team; the thing worth talking about is that BYU has this policy to begin with. The arguments about consistency are not wrong, but miss the larger point, IMHO. BYU is a different type of school, and one can argue it doesn't exist to serve its students' best interests. If TCU were in a conference with Bob Jones U or Liberty U, I think we'd be having similar discussions about them.

And when you have an "honor" code this strict and this devastating, its mere existence becomes evidence of an insitution's self-righteousness. The sort of self-righteousness that will lead a conference member to actively take steps that harm its fellow institutions to serve its own interests, apart from simply depriving those conference mates of the chance to compete against it.

BYU sets itself up as a beacon on a hill and shouldn't be surprised when people comment on the sludge flowing downhill from it.

 

[Delmonico]

And I've never understood the criticism that BYU are "self righteous." Why? Because they have an honor code? Does that make the service academies self righteous as well? Just wondering.

Self-righteousness is a feeling of (usually) smug moral superiority derived from a sense that one's beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person.


Never, ever heard any of the service academies referred to as 'smug'. And therein lies the difference. In that regard BYU and Notre Dame have something in common - by and large (there are most certainly exceptions) these 2 schools (and their constituent fan bases) project a 'our-cr@p-dont-stink' attitude. Which is also why there is little ambivalence towards these two schools - one either loves them or hates them.

 

[Houston Frog]

Wait, isn't this the exact formula for suicide?

Hopefully, it's the exact formula for tonight (and then coffee for tomorrow morning)

 

['96 Coug]

No one SHOULD tell others what they SHOULD care about.

I care a little, from the perspective that I think a lot of the kids who wind up going there are brainwashed to a certain extent, and they make agreements about how they're going to act when they're 18, sometimes 16 or 17 years old, that they're expected to keep for years. That the expectations of them are unreasonable matters...specifically because a 17 or 18 year old kid doesn't have a concept of how long 4-7 years is.

A kid, especially one like Davies, who doesn't share the moral belief structure behind BYU's rules in the first place, can easily get in over his head when signing this stuff, excited about playing ball for a fairly big-time sports school and not thinking about how long they are truly expected to go without sex, booze, tobacco, or even coffee.

That said, the kids should be more choosy. If BYU's offering them, that means there are PLENTY of places they can go play ball with a scholarship. Don't go to a place run by the Mormon Gestapo and you won't be in this boat.

THIS is a prime example of the ignorance that drives me absolutely up the wall. If you don't know the facts, don't open your mouth.

Davies is LDS and grew up in Provo, Utah as a long-time BYU fan.

Same story with Unga last year.

You are certainly entitled to an opinion, but try to base that opinion on truths.

 

['96 Coug]

Some young BYU honor code student accused them of raping her.

Why anyone would subject themselves to a supremist regine known as BYU is beyond me?

Just a bunch of self-righteous nut jobs.

Peter Kranenburg
University Wire
09-06-2005
(The Daily Universe) (U-WIRE) PROVO, Utah -- A Provo, Utah, jury acquitted two former Brigham Young University football players Friday of charges alleging they raped a 17-year-old girl in their apartment last year after a night of drinking.

B.J. Mathis and Ibrahim Rashada left the courtroom innocent of all charges. Mathis and Rashada were found innocent on two counts of aggravated sexual assault, one count of obstruction of justice, and one count of furnishing alcohol to a minor.

"They are as innocent as they were when they first walked in here," said Jere Reneer, defense attorney for B.J. Mathis. "I've never felt …

You're quoting the defense attorney? Really?

I know you find great joy in painting BYU as the evil empire, but BYU was only involved in the rape case as a by-stander. The 17-year old walked into the Provo Police Department to make her claim.

1) Regardless of the court finding, a lot of ugly stuff came out during the process to clearly indicate that the players were not serious about being part of BYU's program.

2) There was not evidence to convict these guys, but that doesn't mean they didn't do it, nor does it mean they are upstanding men.

3) One of the players (I forget which one) has since been incarcerated for rape. Interesting.

 

[Texas Otto]

Self-righteousness is a feeling of (usually) smug moral superiority derived from a sense that one's beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person.


Never, ever heard any of the service academies referred to as 'smug'. And therein lies the difference. In that regard BYU and Notre Dame have something in common - by and large (there are most certainly exceptions) these 2 schools (and their constituent fan bases) project a 'our-cr@p-dont-stink' attitude. Which is also why there is little ambivalence towards these two schools - one either loves them or hates them.

Young man drop that tea bag right now or your outta here!
:wacko:

 

[froginaustin]

[quote name=''96 Coug' timestamp='1299272054' post='791651']
THIS is a prime example of the ignorance that drives me absolutely up the wall. If you don't know the facts, don't open your mouth.

Davies is LDS and grew up in Provo, Utah as a long-time BYU fan.

Same story with Unga last year.

You are certainly entitled to an opinion, but try to base that opinion on truths.
[/quote]
The very idea that tangible, objectively quantifiable "truths" exist is antithetical to a university and to a thinking life outside a university. "Truths" come from indoctrination, not critical analysis (and I don't say that critical analysis guarantees correct answers, but that relying on "truths" almost certainly does not).

Don't expect universal acceptance on this board of BYU-style correct-think. Quite of few of us ain't buying it.

 

[froginaustin]

Why not? The attorney is as likely to be a truth-teller as anyone else in this situation; and apparently more likely to be than the complaining witness in this case.

I know you find great joy in painting BYU as the evil empire, . . ..

You know very little except what you have programed to regurgitate. You prove that every time you type.

1) Regardless of the court finding, a lot of ugly stuff came out during the process to clearly indicate that the players were not serious about being part of BYU's program.

Gossip? Discredited, disbelieved testimony?

2) There was not evidence to convict these guys, but that doesn't mean they didn't do it, nor does it mean they are upstanding men.

It doesn't mean that they DID do it, either. Let him without stain cast the first stone.

3) One of the players (I forget which one) has since been incarcerated for rape. Interesting.

Link?

Or are you making it up as you go along to try to bootstrap your programed point of view? hmy: . :laugh:

 

['96 Coug]

It's a stupid, horrible rule to try to force 18-22 year olds to follow. it's even stupider to mete out the punishments that BYU does for failings that are utterly human (Setting up to fail? Using guilt as an motivational tool?), and the stupidest thing at all is the fact that many of these kids are pressured to attend for religious reasons without being seriously offered an alternative.

The thing worth talking about is not that this BYU player or that BYU player was kicked off his team; the thing worth talking about is that BYU has this policy to begin with. The arguments about consistency are not wrong, but miss the larger point, IMHO. BYU is a different type of school, and one can argue it doesn't exist to serve its students' best interests. If TCU were in a conference with Bob Jones U or Liberty U, I think we'd be having similar discussions about them.

And when you have an "honor" code this strict and this devastating, its mere existence becomes evidence of an insitution's self-righteousness. The sort of self-righteousness that will lead a conference member to actively take steps that harm its fellow institutions to serve its own interests, apart from simply depriving those conference mates of the chance to compete against it.

BYU sets itself up as a beacon on a hill and shouldn't be surprised when people comment on the sludge flowing downhill from it.

Again, you are entitled to your opinion, and I'm guessing you'd never sign up for classes at BYU...which is fine. I wouldn't attend Bob Jones University, because I know it wouldn't be a good fit for me. Nothing against the rules or people at BJU. Pretty simple and straight-forward.

These young men aren't tricked into signing, nor are they being fooled by the fine print. The Honor Code is thoroughly explained to all students and is a major point of emphasis to all recruits. I'll bet 90% of the kids who sign up here WANT to abide by the rules. Shocking, I know. The other 10% probably go there without any intention of following the rules, but that is their fault.

And don't give me the "pressured to go there" crap. That's garbage.

Sure, the rules are hard, and harder for some than others. But 95% of the 30,000 students who attend every year manage to get through the year without infraction, so let's not make this out to be impossible.

It is a sad reflection of our society when "high standards" alone are labeled "self righteousness" and "sludge". My Baptist friends see the majority of the "rules" at BYU to fall in line with their own high standards, and the only "sludge" they talk about, related to sports, is in direct contradiction to everything the Honor Code stands for.

 

['96 Coug]

The very idea that tangible, objectively quantifiable "truths" exist is antithetical to a university and to a thinking life outside a university. "Truths" come from indoctrination, not critical analysis (and I don't say that critical analysis guarantees correct answers, but that relying on "truths" almost certainly does not).

Don't expect universal acceptance on this board of BYU-style correct-think. Quite of few of us ain't buying it.

That's all very deep and, like, whoa...man.

But at the end of the day, Davies is LDS (truth) and from Provo (truth). I'm sure you can delve into scholarly philosophical questions of what "truth" really is, but let's just stick with the boring, conventional definition.

So...yeah...it was still an ignorant statement.

 

[Froglaw]

You're quoting the defense attorney? Really?

Yes, I could quote the prosecutor, but he lost.

I know you find great joy in painting BYU as the evil empire, but BYU was only involved in the rape case as a by-stander. The 17-year old walked into the Provo Police Department to make her claim.

No, BYU instigated the entire fiasco. First they housed the black players off campus. Second, they put incredible pressure on 17 and 18 year old children.
Third, BYU did not wait for any evidence, it took the word of the alleged victim and kick the players off the team and out of the school. Their right to be presumed innocent was ignored by BYU. THAT OFFENDS ME AND YOU'RE RIGHT, ONLY AN EVIL EMPIRE WOULD CREATE THAT TYPE OF SYSTEM.

1) Regardless of the court finding, a lot of ugly stuff came out during the process to clearly indicate that the players were not serious about being part of BYU's program.

So it was okay to treat the accused as second class citizens and abuse their rights as human beings?

2) There was not evidence to convict these guys, but that doesn't mean they didn't do it, nor does it mean they are upstanding men.

Ah, the last gasp of a defeated State Prosecutor. The jury got it wrong. The state's witnesses didn't come across well. The Defense lawyer played dirty. Wahhhhhhhh!
3) One of the players (I forget which one) has since been incarcerated for rape. Interesting.

Really, which one. What was the name of the alleged rapist? When was he charged?

While your researching that one, are you saying if a person is convicted of a crime, he must surely have committed a similar crime in the past? Wow!!!! Sounds like a Tom Cruise movie.

 

['96 Coug]

Why not? The attorney is as likely to be a truth-teller as anyone else in this situation; and apparently more likely to be than the complaining witness in this case.

You know very little except what you have programed to regurgitate. You prove that every time you type.

Gossip? Discredited, disbelieved testimony?

It doesn't mean that they DID do it, either. Let him without stain cast the first stone.

Link?

Or are you making it up as you go along to try to bootstrap your programed point of view? hmy: . :laugh:

You are right, he is as likely to tell the truth as the prosecuting attorney, neither of whom can be trusted to tell the truth.

I'm glad you've gotten to know and love me on a personal level. But I find it odd that you label and insult me and then go on to quote scripture about "casting stones". Very schizo and hypocritical behavior.

BYU didn't kick them out on the rape allegations. They kicked them out on their own testimony (being drunk, engaging in group sex, etc) , which broke major Honor Code rules. That's not "gossip" or "disbelieved testimony" - that was their own testimony to police and to the judge.

Oh, and your link is right here: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700026289/BYU-football-Former-recruit-Karland-Bennett-arrested-charged-in-Dallas-killing.html?s_cid=rss-28






Owned.