Big 12 in position to poach Pac 12 schools?

[hiphopfroggy]

Many people incorrectly think that opening a medical school means we are on a one-way bullet train to R1 or even AAU status. That thinking very much underestimates (1) how far away we are in total research spending and (2) the many requirements beyond total spending.

I’m just pointing out that you’re not just kinda wrong but like many grossly underestimating what it takes to achieve those sorts of research classifications.

We aren’t R1 or AAU’ing our way into an elite league. We’re going to have to earn it on the field and some of the B1G’s requirements would have to change.

As much conversation as there is on this board about realignment, it’s helpful to be realistic.

It's strange because I didn't say any of these things.

 

[Gary's Shirtless Revenge]

Many people incorrectly think that opening a medical school means we are on a one-way bullet train to R1 or even AAU status. That thinking very much underestimates (1) how far away we are in total research spending and (2) the many requirements beyond total spending.

I’m just pointing out that you’re not just kinda wrong but like many grossly underestimating what it takes to achieve those sorts of research classifications.

We aren’t R1 or AAU’ing our way into an elite league. We’re going to have to earn it on the field and some of the B1G’s requirements would have to change.

As much conversation as there is on this board about realignment, it’s helpful to be realistic.

Curious your thoughts on this list… schools TCU wants to emulate and match long term with its current strategic plan:

Notre Dame (stretch goal)
USC?
Wake Forest
Tulane
Miami

These are just a general cohort group, not sure on any singally.

 

[gofor2]

Non one in the pac 12 footprint even cares about college sports.

Do you have an extra chromosome?

 

[Double V]

I actually like that format as long as we are in the right, Texas, division. Other teams outside of texas will hate it.

Is that sarcasm at the end? I think thats what you are going for, but I'm more than happy not seeing Cincinnati or UCF or even WVU until 3 years

No sarcasm. I would love to see the B12 expand and be the 1st true "super conference"

 

[Dogfrog]

But metro area is what counts as far as TV numbers go. The individual populations of Dallas and Fort Worth proper vs Austin and San Antonio proper doesn't.

I get it that there are more people in the greater DFW area, but I still have not seen a definition of what makes up a metro area. Is it just declaring yourself a metroplex? Dallas and Fort Worth are 30 miles apart while Austin and San Antonio are 70 miles apart. What do TV numbers have to do with distance between two cities?

 

[Sweat Equity]

 

[TCUdirtbag]

It's strange because I didn't say any of these things.

You literally posted “soon TCU's research dollars will dwarf anyone without a Medical School.” Objectively wrong. Between this and the SMU sympathy you can’t stop taking Ls!

 

[TCUdirtbag]

Curious your thoughts on this list… schools TCU wants to emulate and match long term with its current strategic plan:

Notre Dame (stretch goal)
USC?
Wake Forest
Tulane
Miami

These are just a general cohort group, not sure on any singally.

A few years back TCU self-identified 10 “peer” institutions: Wake, Tulane, Nova, Pepperdine, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, American, SMU, and Baylor.

Wake is much more aspirant then peer - it really isn’t a peer at all. But when you look at size and TCU’s move into healthcare, and presence in P5 sports, it makes sense as an aspirant. The same could be said of Tulane less the P5 part.

I think it’s hard for TCU to name a model aspirant institution these days. What other urban university has < 20k students, P5 athletics and ISN’T an AAU institution/major research university (USC, Pitt, Vandy, Northwestern, and while less urban on campus proper Duke and Stanford)? That just leaves Miami and BC and in the not-urban but otherwise close category Notre Dame, Wake and BYU, right? Miami and BC’s omission from the list in favor of Pepperdine and Santa Clara and Nova are interesting choices IMO.

Point being - TCU is trying to be something really unique in higher ed: an urban teaching/liberal arts institution in the south/southwest that’s happy as an R2 or maybe one day light R1 with P5 athletics and 15k-20k students. I think that’s fantastic because it’s just basically just a scaled up version of what TCU has been for a long time - it seems to want to stay pretty true to itself. Will that sort of institution stay competitive in P5 and whatever comes next in college athletics? I do not know. Can we succeed by changing our identity - emulating Vandy or USC - I don’t know. The capital and values shifts required to go big research u is insane.

So yes I think Wake and Miami and Tulane are the right directions to look. Each has its own distinction from what TCU is (Wake isn’t that competitive in P5, much higher ranked, has a huge healthcare delivery enterprise, isn’t as urban, and isn’t looking to grow its undergrad population in the same way; Miami is much more active in research and grad space—but probably the closest to achievable/mimic-able should TCU opt to go that route—, and Tulane has fewer undergrads and a robust AAU research and grad enterprise decades ahead of TCU’s potential), but we seem to be looking to combine some of those elements. Interestingly only one of those 3 seems to have any sense of long term security at the highest level of college sports - which IMO shows the tough odds staring at us.

 

[LVH]

I understand the Big 12 still thinks it’s more likely the Pac 10 will hold than lose members.

It’s funny that it’s leaked the Pac 12 commish will visit other expansion candidates. The funniest timeline would be SMU getting bumped at the last minute for UNLV.

I do believe UNLV brings more to the table than SMU does. I also believe New Mexico brings more to the table than SMU.

 

[Zubaz]

I do believe UNLV brings more to the table than SMU does. I also believe New Mexico brings more to the table than SMU.

New Mexico....definitely not. Basketball is finally starting to come back from Alford's departure, but everything else is BRUUUUUUTAL. They draw 20,000 people on a good day, play 50/50 in their rivalry with the terrible New Mexico State, and they have one of the worst football stadiums in FBS.

New Mexico cares more about our second-tier soccer club than the Lobos. It would be pretty nuts to see them in a power conference.

 

[Gary's Shirtless Revenge]

A few years back TCU self-identified 10 “peer” institutions: Wake, Tulane, Nova, Pepperdine, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, American, SMU, and Baylor.

Wake is much more aspirant then peer - it really isn’t a peer at all. But when you look at size and TCU’s move into healthcare, and presence in P5 sports, it makes sense as an aspirant. The same could be said of Tulane less the P5 part.

I think it’s hard for TCU to name a model aspirant institution these days. What other urban university has < 20k students, P5 athletics and ISN’T an AAU institution/major research university (USC, Pitt, Vandy, Northwestern, and while less urban on campus proper Duke and Stanford)? That just leaves Miami and BC and in the not-urban but otherwise close category Notre Dame, Wake and BYU, right? Miami and BC’s omission from the list in favor of Pepperdine and Santa Clara and Nova are interesting choices IMO.

Point being - TCU is trying to be something really unique in higher ed: an urban teaching/liberal arts institution in the south/southwest that’s happy as an R2 or maybe one day light R1 with P5 athletics and 15k-20k students. I think that’s fantastic because it’s just basically just a scaled up version of what TCU has been for a long time - it seems to want to stay pretty true to itself. Will that sort of institution stay competitive in P5 and whatever comes next in college athletics? I do not know. Can we succeed by changing our identity - emulating Vandy or USC - I don’t know. The capital and values shifts required to go big research u is insane.

So yes I think Wake and Miami and Tulane are the right directions to look. Each has its own distinction from what TCU is (Wake isn’t that competitive in P5, much higher ranked, has a huge healthcare delivery enterprise, isn’t as urban, and isn’t looking to grow its undergrad population in the same way; Miami is much more active in research and grad space—but probably the closest to achievable/mimic-able should TCU opt to go that route—, and Tulane has fewer undergrads and a robust AAU research and grad enterprise decades ahead of TCU’s potential), but we seem to be looking to combine some of those elements. Interestingly only one of those 3 seems to have any sense of long term security at the highest level of college sports - which IMO shows the tough odds staring at us.

Reinforces the potential that, if we pull it off, TCU might end up being 1 of 1 in terms of the academic focus and profile with a top-flight athletics franchise. The general public would probably compare us to ND or USC, but to your point it isn't really a great comparison.

 

[Wexahu]

New Mexico....definitely not. Basketball is finally starting to come back from Alford's departure, but everything else is BRUUUUUUTAL. They draw 20,000 people on a good day, play 50/50 in their rivalry with the terrible New Mexico State, and they have one of the worst football stadiums in FBS.

New Mexico cares more about our second-tier soccer club than the Lobos. It would be pretty nuts to see them in a power conference.

I agree, New Mexico brings almost nothing to the table.

I think SMU is a better long term candidate than most here want to admit, and most definitely they are more like us than most would want to admit. The problems they have are much more fixable than the inherent problems that a New Mexico or UNLV have. UNM is a smallish school in the middle of nowhere that has about zero football history and UNLV is a garbage school.

 

[Armadillo]

Curious your thoughts on this list… schools TCU wants to emulate and match long term with its current strategic plan:

Notre Dame (stretch goal)
USC?
Wake Forest
Tulane
Miami

These are just a general cohort group, not sure on any singally.

I'm not nearly as dialed into the innerworkings of TCU as I used to be, but I know for years it was Wake Forest. That may have changed in the last 15 years.

 

[hiphopfroggy]

You literally posted “soon TCU's research dollars will dwarf anyone without a Medical School.” Objectively wrong. Between this and the SMU sympathy you can’t stop taking Ls!

Yea and the school being mentioned when I made that comment were SMU and Baylor. Yea, TCU is going to pass them and schools in that range in research relatively soon.

Then you proceeded to have a weird conversation with yourself and are now angry. Just a really weird guy, and not in an interesting way.

 

[Wexahu]

Yea and the school being mentioned when I made that comment were SMU and Baylor. Yea, TCU is going to pass them and schools in that range in research relatively soon.

Then you proceeded to have a weird conversation with yourself and are now angry. Just a really weird guy, and not in an interesting way.

"TCU is about to graduate their first M.D. class and soon TCU's research dollars will dwarf anyone without a Medical School."

So anyone is supposed to mean only SMU and Baylor. Got it. That's a really weird way to refer to just those two schools.

dirtbag just pointed out the ignorance of your post, I don't see what is so weird about that.

 

[LVH]

New Mexico....definitely not. Basketball is finally starting to come back from Alford's departure, but everything else is BRUUUUUUTAL. They draw 20,000 people on a good day, play 50/50 in their rivalry with the terrible New Mexico State, and they have one of the worst football stadiums in FBS.

New Mexico cares more about our second-tier soccer club than the Lobos. It would be pretty nuts to see them in a power conference.

They would always bring the most visiting fans to Las Vegas for the MWC tournament. If their football got better their fanbase would start caring. If they can fill the Pit for basketball its not a stretch to believe they could do the same for football if it got better.

SMU doesn't bring fans anywhere for any sport

 

[hiphopfroggy]

"TCU is about to graduate their first M.D. class and soon TCU's research dollars will dwarf anyone without a Medical School."

So anyone is supposed to mean only SMU and Baylor. Got it. That's a really weird way to refer to just those two schools.

dirtbag just pointed out the ignorance of your post, I don't see what is so weird about that.

Just a little bit of hyperbole supporting TCU on a TCU forum.

Won't happen again.



And he didn't just 'point out the ignorance' of my post. He had an entire conversation with himself while creating a litany of false narratives and straw men to attribute to my post. Completely fabricated. Very strange.

 

[This Ain't Chopped Liver]

Point being - TCU is trying to be something really unique in higher ed: an urban teaching/liberal arts institution in the south/southwest that’s happy as an R2 or maybe one day light R1 with P5 athletics and 15k-20k students. I think that’s fantastic because it’s just basically just a scaled up version of what TCU has been for a long time - it seems to want to stay pretty true to itself.

Thanks for the rundown and I like those parameters though I don’t think I want TCU to get to 20k, preferring to be closer to 15k while increasing postgrad degrees and research.

Your parameters are about where larger Baylor is now—about 20,600 and light R1 in research. Waco is small urban (280k metro) and growing quickly like most every Texas city in the Texas triangle.

Baylor is maybe only different in that they have Baptist doctrine and though it may seem very unlikely, they could drop that someday. TCU has the much larger urban area for the better linear TV market and some NIL advantage, but many student athletes and students don’t want to be in a huge city.

SMU might grow to 15K (currently 12.4k with 7k undergrads). They have high R2 research and will likely reach R1 by 2030, and if they get lucky and add P5 athletics….

 

[TCUdirtbag]

Just a little bit of hyperbole supporting TCU on a TCU forum.

Won't happen again.



And he didn't just 'point out the ignorance' of my post. He had an entire conversation with himself while creating a litany of false narratives and straw men to attribute to my post. Completely fabricated. Very strange.

I know it’s the internet and nothing matters but you made an incorrect statement, I pointed it out and connected it to the larger conversation in this thread, and you just keep doubling down on being wrong. I’m just correcting you and adding more context about the industry and how these things may fit in the context of realignment. If that’s weird and you think my knowledge = my being mad, well, that’s just your opinion man.

 

[JugbandFrog]

BYU and UCF were the two strongest candidates

UH dead last of the 4. Cincy not much better (most of their “fans” root for Ohio state)

Rather would have had SMU than UH