• All Hail The Hypnotoad

OK, so why is Montigel let go?

TCUdirtbag

ALL HAIL THE HYPNOTOAD
You could consider it a joke--or an opportunity.

I encourage you to check out Grand Canyon University's story. It embraced its location is a very sketchy section of Phoenix, bought a bunch of the real estate around campus, committed to neighborhood revitalization, developed a partnership with Habitat for Humanity, and made hundreds of millions of dollars (before and after transitioning to non-profit status) while earning a huge amount of community goodwill. https://news.gcu.edu/2020/02/operation-revival-is-working-for-neighborhood/

And, oh yeah, it involved taking over and revitalizing a poorly maintained, unprofitable golf course. The GCU course is now a money maker, hosts college tournaments like the one TCU played in this spring, and led to the creation of a golf management degree program.

Grand Canyon is still a for-profit college. You can buy a share of publicly traded LOPE.

A significant amount of the money used to pay for those on-campus facilities for their 25,000 in-person students is funded by their 90,000 online students.
 
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JogginFrog

ALL HAIL THE HYPNOTOAD
Grand Canyon is still a for-profit college. You can buy a share of publicly traded LOPE.

A significant amount of the money used to pay for those on-campus facilities for their 25,000 in-person students is funded by their 90,000 online students.
Well, it is according to the IRS--although I guess it isn't per the US Department of Education (see also this). Some of the feud is about the businesses operated by GCU, like the golf course. But a lot of it has to do with federal student aid.
 
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YA

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We are talking about this place, right?

I haven't been to FW in years. Anyone know how the distillery is doing? Seems like the neighborhood has changed a lot with the development of the old Masonic Home campus, but I have no idea what the city's development plan is for the area.
The distillery is doing great. The owners are members of one of the richest families in America. They rarely play golf there of any sort except for special events that is vey limited. Never say never, but TCU's chance to buy the property is zero.
 

TCUdirtbag

ALL HAIL THE HYPNOTOAD
Well, it is according to the IRS--although I guess it isn't per the US Department of Education (see also this). Some of the feud is about the businesses operated by GCU, like the golf course. But a lot of it has to do with federal student aid.
There are two parallel entities. The operating entity is a publicly traded corporation. It’s shares are public and traded on NASDAQ. You can buy stock in it. Yes, there is also an entity that they have tried to use to claim non-profit status. ED has determined the purported non-profit is controlled by the for-profit.
 

JogginFrog

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Bama recently approved a ~$30mm golf facility. Impressive.

attachment-IGZ4MZCDBBHDVNH2FIWYBMAOZY.jpeg

"According to the proposal presented to the Board, this project would include a massive clubhouse, a practice course and a nine-hole course that can be played in multiple routes. They plan on giving the clubhouse a Georgian Revival look, along with limestone detailing and a brook veneer."

Read More: Alabama's Plan for New Golf Facility Will Blow Your Mind | https://tide1009.com/alabamas-plan-...-mind/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral
That Alabama facility is amazing. And so are the facilities of a lot of powerhouse programs. I don't expect TCU to have a facility like this. But it would be nice if TCU could aspire to have something on a par with Abilene Christian.
Practice Facility:


Clubhouse:
 

Eight

ALL HAIL THE HYPNOTOAD
That Alabama facility is amazing. And so are the facilities of a lot of powerhouse programs. I don't expect TCU to have a facility like this. But it would be nice if TCU could aspire to have something on a par with Abilene Christian.
Practice Facility:


Clubhouse:

have a couple of kids who have lived in the dorms at acu and might have exception to the idea that whatever acu does they do with excellence

agree that tcu should be able to do something on par to what acu put together, but there is a bit more open space around and on the acu campus
 

Brog

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have a couple of kids who have lived in the dorms at acu and might have exception to the idea that whatever acu does they do with excellence

agree that tcu should be able to do something on par to what acu put together, but there is a bit more open space around and on the acu campus
Classic understatement: "but there is a bit more open space around and on the act campus."
 

Paul in uhh

ALL HAIL THE HYPNOTOAD
TCU is one of the few major golf programs that does not have a dedicated practice facility for their men's/women's teams. Most of these facilities include launch monitors, video, climate-controlled indoor hitting bays, putting greens with both tiff/bermuda hybrid and bentgrass surfaces, multiple bunkers and chipping greens, as well as numerous "course-like" target greens, as well as many other amenities like locker rooms, kitchens, study rooms and lounge areas. Some of them are setup up so you can play a 3-4 hole loop, where you can hit multiple balls without interrupting play on a real golf course.

And to boot, more often than not, these facilities are located on a golf course that the school either owns or controls, so access is never an issue.

Colonial, Shady Oaks and Mira Vista are all fantastic places, but the players don't have free reign at those places like players do at other schools. Because of all of the above, we are getting heavily out-recruited.

There is simply no way on earth places like Kansas and Texas Tech should ever have better golf programs than TCU. Yet here we are...

Furthermore, we are also getting out-recruited, in my opinion, because we have a coach who is primarily an administrator and a motivator. When you contrast TCU with places like Tech with Greg Sands, Baylor with Mike McGraw, and many others, you will see they have coaches that have administrative and motivational skills, but also have high-playing level and teaching skills. This is true about nearly every one of our competitors.

Bill Montigel was hired in 1987 after Bill Woodley left to go coach Arkansas (who had John Daly on their roster). Montigel was an assistant basketball coach at the time for Killingsworth, but when Killingsworth retired, Montigel had no place to go. Enter the illustrious Frank Windegger and Mel Thomas. In typical form, they back-handed the hiring of a new coach by filling it with an easy solution -- Montigel.

He had zero golf experience, but he did bring a unique way of motivating and cultivating players' minds with him. He relied heavily on his relationship with Mike Holder from Oklahoma State to form his blueprint for coaching, which was a great move on his part. His first few years were rough. But in my opinion, he succeeded way beyond anybody's expectations, and he deserves all the credit for that. Anybody inside the program back then would have bet that his tenure wouldn't last more than 3-4 years at best.

If you want to see what a truly good golf coach is like these days, I suggest you watch the special on the Stanford women's team on YouTube. I can't tell you how much more advanced and professional golf coaches are today than during the Woodley/early Montigel eras.

A Week in the Life: Stanford Women's Golf


On Edit: By the way...Bill Woodley's salary at TCU when he left -- $28,000. That ought to tell you how much emphasis TCU had on golf at the time.
That documentary you linked was amazing. That team shot -50 in three rounds of stroke play. Unfathomably good.
 

AllFrog

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That Alabama facility is amazing. And so are the facilities of a lot of powerhouse programs. I don't expect TCU to have a facility like this. But it would be nice if TCU could aspire to have something on a par with Abilene Christian.
Practice Facility:


Clubhouse:
TCU is the only Power 5 school without a facility
 

Frog96761

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Only thing I'd add is that negotiating access to a handful of high-end golf courses is what good high school programs do.

Does a minor sport justify the cost of a dedicated facility like what @gohornedfrogs described? It does if you want to have a top-30 team. If I'm ADJD I either have a proposal that I'm shopping to major donors or I'm looking at dropping men's and women's golf. The middle ground is untenable. I hope he makes the path clear soon.
Wow, hard to be so correct and incorrect in one article. TCU had the practice clubhouse and short game facility designed and ready to going during the Morrison days. Then, our program was current with what was state of the art. Enter CDC. That facility was put aside. Then, our program went behind the curve — day one, CDC. (CDC was focused on other matters that were behind the curve — a football stadium and revenue.). There it remains. Montigel dramatically outperforms any program in light of the limitations he deals with. Moreover, he has outperformed most every program in any event. He’s purple to the core and never has complained about a thing in 40 years. He makes 50% of what other coaches make in the conference, he has no facilities, and he went to regionals 31 years in a row. He’s amazing. So TCU exploits him. They won’t get a coach worth his salt absent facilities. Build it, but hire Bill.
 

John Shelden

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The dude spent 45 years at TCU. This isn’t a charity and his teams haven’t been producing.
31 straight years qualifying for NCAA regional, made the NCAA Finals 8 of the last 10 years, 8 conference titles, multiple players on major professional tours, multiple all Americans. Better results than any other program at TCU. And that's without all the fluff facilities that other top programs have. It would be like Jamie Dixon only having Daniel Meyer to recruit with. Most of the top players we missed on loved Coach and TCU, but chose the perks of UT, Ou and Osu over Colonial, Shady Oaks, and Mira Vista. We missed on the Coody twins because their father went to UT because our coach in the early 80s, FW, wouldn't recruit or offer him a place on the team.
 

JogginFrog

ALL HAIL THE HYPNOTOAD
Wow, hard to be so correct and incorrect in one article. TCU had the practice clubhouse and short game facility designed and ready to going during the Morrison days. Then, our program was current with what was state of the art. Enter CDC. That facility was put aside. Then, our program went behind the curve — day one, CDC. (CDC was focused on other matters that were behind the curve — a football stadium and revenue.). There it remains. Montigel dramatically outperforms any program in light of the limitations he deals with. Moreover, he has outperformed most every program in any event. He’s purple to the core and never has complained about a thing in 40 years. He makes 50% of what other coaches make in the conference, he has no facilities, and he went to regionals 31 years in a row. He’s amazing. So TCU exploits him. They won’t get a coach worth his salt absent facilities. Build it, but hire Bill.
31 straight years qualifying for NCAA regional, made the NCAA Finals 8 of the last 10 years, 8 conference titles, multiple players on major professional tours, multiple all Americans. Better results than any other program at TCU. And that's without all the fluff facilities that other top programs have. It would be like Jamie Dixon only having Daniel Meyer to recruit with. Most of the top players we missed on loved Coach and TCU, but chose the perks of UT, Ou and Osu over Colonial, Shady Oaks, and Mira Vista. We missed on the Coody twins because their father went to UT because our coach in the early 80s, FW, wouldn't recruit or offer him a place on the team.
As someone who has not met Coach M, it means a lot to see the near-unanimous appreciation for his character as a person and as a developer of young men. Thanks for jumping in as new members to point out all he has done for TCU with limited resources.

I'm glad to hear that plans were made for a facility back in the Morrison days. Would any of those still be usable, given the time and changes since then?

The conversation reminds me a little of those in the final two years of Trent Johnson's tenure. High-character late-career coach who had very little to work with. Still went after top recruits despite playing in a high school gym; several of them kept TCU on their list to the day they committed to Kentucky or Duke or Kansas (which a Johnson-coached TCU team beat). Raised TCU's avg ranking in KenPom by 100 spots--but TCU was so far behind, most fans couldn't appreciate it. Got to see the facility built but no opportunity to coach in it. Love that when he was let go, his one quote was, "I’m proud of the kids and how they stayed the course."

The conversation was similar but the results weren't. Unfathomable to think that a Johnson team playing at Wilkerson-Greines could produce a national player of the year, or finish runner up in conference standings, or make the sweet 16--but Montigel's teams did all of that in the past eight years.

I see that Johnson hasn't retired. After ably filling multiple interim-head-coach openings, he was made full-time HC at Cal State-Northridge for the coming year.

I know Coach M wants to continue to coach; hard to imagine him wearing another school's gear.

I understand an AD wanting a hot new coach to go with a shiny new facility. Not sure if either is in TCU's future. But full appreciation should be shown to coaches who rep TCU well while under-resourced, and that certainly applies here--45 years' worth.
 

Hemingway

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The distillery is doing great. The owners are members of one of the richest families in America. They rarely play golf there of any sort except for special events that is vey limited. Never say never, but TCU's chance to buy the property is zero.
What family? The distillery was bought out in 2019?
 

Michael Milton's Jaw

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What did the basketball players call Coach M back at Milton Daniel? The tiptoe burglar? I think Killer had him check curfew and if you ever saw him walk back then, you understand the tiptoe part.
 
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