1. The KillerFrogs

Offense: Tempo vs Ball Control

Discussion in 'Scott Nix Frog Fan Forum' started by Froggish, Oct 13, 2019.

  1. Since Meach went away and Cumbie has been given the OC job we have started grinding slower and slower as an offense. Utilizing the running game significantly more than the pass and essentially wanting to play keep away. I know that philosophy is GP driven as it protects his defensive unit. While balance is important, I think 90% of CFB fans see that the game has evolved to favor passing the ball over the run.

    So I am curious, why do OCs think you have to be all in on tempo or ball control. Why don’t more teams utilize both (outside of 2Min situations)? When I rewatched the ISU game I noticed they were very ball controlled until they had 3rd and 4 or less and they would use tempo in those situations to keep us from dialing up the plays we wanted. In the first half they slow, slow, tempo a lot and it almost always worked...I thought it made for a ver effective way of getting favorable matchups and still controlling the clock...

    It’s clear that Duggan needs some pace to get into rhythm and we need to give him more moments to do it...I think GP and SC could find some balance
     
  2. Won 12 games and 11 games in 14, 15 going fast, you would think they would give it a try in 19 but change isn’t exactly what this staff excels at
     
  3. So slow to change.
     
    4th. down likes this.
  4. Well, we did slow it down at the slightest hiccup in 2016.
     
  5. One thing that is consistent with Cumbie is that if he finds something that doesn’t work, he sticks with it.
     
  6. I’ve noticed when a defense consistently stops his 10 base plays he starts having real trouble knowing how to adjust and attack them...From there it’s just a bunch roll the dice kind of plays...
     
  7. IMHO we started to suck offensively when we stopped running uptempo. It's so difficult for a defense to adjust to and defend over the course of a drive.
     
  8. When things get a little tough, he loves to try things with a ridiculous level of difficulty.

    I think running up tempo keeps everybody for thinking too much. The slower we go the dumber the decisions look. I will say this problem isn't just isolated to Cumbie, but he is a big offender in that category.
     
  9. I don’t like when the play is over and everyone hurries up to the line and rushes to get a play off, but I hate when everyone lines up and then looks over to the sidelines or otherwise just waits for time to pass before running a play. Have a plan, play with some conviction, don’t rush but don’t waste time either. That’s what I’d prefer.

    I think when defenses have plenty of time to see how you’re lined up and check with the sidelines on the call, they have the upper hand.
     
    jake102 likes this.
  10. The key to developing Duggan is using more up tempo the rest of the season. That way he can get going earlier the games instead of waiting until the season half.
     
    Big Frog II likes this.
  11. I will 100% back this up. Hell, stay in the huddle for 30 seconds, run up to the line and snap the damn play within 5 seconds. Dont let them get the defense set up. It's the semi-HUNH offense.
     
    Tumbleweed, jake102 and BrewingFrog like this.
  12. Again...ISU took their time getting plays right but also utilized faster tempo on critical downs to keep GP from being able to attack..Of course they also used a lot of shifting of formations to confuse us...That’s something else we haven’t done any of and just another example of how 1997 our offense is
     
  13. Uptempo is a train wreck when it doesnt work. It looks good when it works, but when it doesn't it affects everything. I dont think its possible to win a national title playing up tempo. You're bound to slip up once or twice even if you look like a million bucks in the games you win.

    Reminds me a lot of the system in basketball we played under Billy Tubbs. We would destroy teams without the talent and humiliate them. But teams who could match up with us athletically would give us a lot of trouble. That's what happened with Baylor under Briles and recently with UCF who seems to be the tempo poster child these days. Baylor looked unstoppable 90% of the time in 2013 and 2014 but 3 of the 4 games they lost in those 2 years weren't even close.

    I am not saying we need to go full 90s Nebraska and run a wishbone but uptempo offenses are not the cure-all many of you think it is. When a team that plays tempo wins a national title maybe I will be less critical. I don't think our current offense works though. It's not intended to be a tempo friendly scheme. Either go all in on it and accept the fact its not going to win you a national title, or change the system completely.
     
    Wexahu likes this.
  14. I think the problem that we have isn’t our tempo per se - it’s the fact that we are trying to run a tempo-based offense at a much slower speed. Air Raid works partially by keeping defenses in their base formations and keeping them on their toes by moving quickly ... we are running Air Raid plays at 1/4 the speed we should be which completely negates all the advantages of the Air Raid.

    if we moved to more of a veer and shoot or power spread or something offense we would probably be fine, but Cumbie pretty clearly doesn’t know how to run that offense.
     
    jake102 likes this.
  15. I agree with that LVH. But as long as we have Cumbie and recruit the type of players we do, might as well run up tempo.
     
  16. #16 SnoSki, Oct 14, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
    My reasons for running uptempo:

    1) all 5 of the top 5 teams today run it: Clemson, OU, OSU, Bama and LSU.

    2) The top four scoring offenses this year use it: OU, OSU, Bama and LSU

    3) All offenses are a train wreck when they don’t work. Which brings me to our next point...

    4) Losses count the same, whether its 61-58 or 17-14. Why not score a bunch of points in the process and at least have one element of your team look good if you’re gonna lose? At least in the 61-58 scenario you can tell your offensive recruits that your offense scores basically at will and they’ll get a chance to do that again. In the 17-14 scenario, I imagine that “we run a slow offense to keep the other team off the field” is a terrible recruiting pitch with top athletes in TX.

    5) Recruits these days are almost exclusively running high tempo offenses in HS, yet, we now bring them in here and slow them down and force them to learn a whole new way of doing things. Sounds like a square-peg-round-hole situation and it seems like a great way to have shallow depth (because players aren’t ready to go from day 1) and increase the risk of players who won’t pan out (players who never learn).

    6) You have to recruit at an ELITE level and not miss on evaluations in order to run a slow, pro-style/ball-control offense. You can’t win national titles without the blue-chips and we all know tcu might never sign a lot of those. Heck, the big 4 listed above CAN recruit at that level and still
    run a more forgiving system.

    7) When we had our best offenses, the playmakers weren’t the biggest, fastest, sure-bet future NFL blue-chip superstars available. The same went for Baylor and Briles (using them only because they scored a lot of points too). Why did baylor get so good, so fast? Was it because they suddenly began signing top-5 classes, or did they run an offensive system that works with less gifted athletes who are a dime a dozen and easy to recruit?

    7) I think it was Leach or Briles who once said that the longer a drive is, the more chances your players will have to screw it up. Makes sense to me.

    8) IMHO it’s easier to play defense with an offense who can score quickly. Would you rather play defense for a team that averages 28ppg on offense or 48? Which lets a defense play looser and with less stress?

    9) Can our offense now come back when it’s down only 14? Not very likely. Could our 2014/2015 teams? Absolutely.

    10) Running a slower offense doesn’t mean that going 3-and-out is less likely. It just means you burned 90 seconds of game time instead of 45. Thus giving you less time to make up for it and score on a future drive. I hear your protests now, “but at least the other team doesn’t have the ball! If they don’t have the ball, they can’t score.” While true in theory, the elite offenses like OU don’t need 9 minutes to score. They can often do it in 2 mins or less. And really, if you’re gonna go 3-and-out vs OU for an entire first quarter, what’s the difference between trailing 28-0 with the slow offense and 35-0 and the fast one? Both suck and in both cases you’re likely to lose the game anyway.

    11) In theory, with ball control, you give up fewer yards. Statistics back this up as you might expect but how many fewer yards? When TCU offense ran at its best (2014-2015 seasons) the defense averaged 365 yards allowed. In the last two seasons, the defense is allowing an average of 311 yards. Is the 54 yards worth it?


    Just my opinions of course, some stronger than others. I believe the strongest evidence for my position lies In what the major blueblood programs are doing and succeeding with. They can recruit at a level necessary to run an exemplary ball control offense, but they choose to use their blue chips differentlin what the major blue blood programs are doing in succeeding with. They can recruit at a level necessary to run an exemplary ball control offense, but they choose to run a different style.
     


  17. Patterson has zero interest with an up tempo offense...
     
  18. TCU Offensive motto, “We are not satisfied until your not satisfied.”
     
    jake102 likes this.
  19. Fair enough, but generally trying to beat the blue bloods at their own game is suicide. I think Army might be the only non blue blood to give OU a run for their money in the last couple years. Used to be uptempo spread was the way to beat the Alabamas and Ohio States because it wasn’t what they did or practiced against, now it plays into their game. Everything kind of works in cycles, maybe the way to beat them now might be slow, deliberate, complex running schemes like the triple option.

    Not suggesting we do that or don’t start using some tempo but I really don’t think HUNH exclusively is the recipe for beating teams like Oklahoma. Would probably just result in really lopsided higher scoring games.
     
  20. Key factor to up tempo... Catching the ball.

    Get some receivers to catch the ball, and Gary might be happy. First they have to start scoring points instead of giving up on routes, dropping perfectly good passes, and fighting for the 50/50 throws.
     

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