I am not sure the program needs serious work if we have 8 wins with how strong OU and Texas seem to be. 8 wins with a brand new QB seems about right to me. I will be bummed but also trying to be realistic. If we lose a few games and are competing on the offensive side of the ball then I will be less concerned about the state of the program. However, if we fail to score more then 28 points 10 times again, like we did last season, then I will be concerned about the state of the program. We didn't score more than 17 points in 6 games last year which is completely unacceptable. Cumbie's job is on the line this year.
ESPN take on TCU vs Purdue
- Thread starter SuperTFrog
- Start date
I am not sure the program needs serious work if we have 8 wins with how strong OU and Texas seem to be. 8 wins with a brand new QB seems about right to me. I will be bummed but also trying to be realistic. If we lose a few games and are competing on the offensive side of the ball then I will be less concerned about the state of the program. However, if we fail to score more then 28 points 10 times again, like we did last season, then I will be concerned about the state of the program. We didn't score more than 17 points in 6 games last year which is completely unacceptable. Cumbie's job is on the line this year.
Limp Lizard
Full Member
If you are saying we are and will continue to be a second tier program below OU and UT that is certainly not acceptable to me or to most Frog fans. Remember GP has stated that the national championship is a real objective. If not, then we need to change his pyramid and he needs to stop telling us how good his recruiting classes are, that the recruiting rankings are just nonsense for the fans. If we will never be able to compete for the national championship then the whole program needs evaluating. Of just be like Baylor and Tech and put our money into Track, basketball, soccer, baseball and sports we have a chance to be really good in.
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Limp Lizard
Full Member
Boykin was good, yes. He was a very good QB. But we have as good or better talent now. But not that good. Mahomes, Mayfield, Murray, etc. (even RGIII) were better college QBs. His talent was not that extraordinary is shown by is success in the NFL. He could not throw intermediate passes, especially over the middle, although he admitted it and worked on it with little improvement (wonder now how much of that was coaching). He was often inaccurate, but players like Doctson would snag bad throws. He was very good at keeping the play alive and making the offense score. Which is what counts. As are several QB's every year. Every year Oky St eventually has a good QB, same with Tech under Kingsbury, and so on. Out offense apparently has great playmakers but we have trouble throwing the pall to them. Lots of true Freshmen do quite well every year. So, no excuses for the offense this year. It is all in Cumbie's lap. Quit blaming the talent because it is there.
BrewingFrog
Was I supposed to type something here?
Limp, I will politely disagree. What we have is potential, which you well know does not necessarily blossom into results. Boykin was a fine talent, and he certainly blossomed in the Meach/Cumbie system. It also helped mightily that he had a special talent at receiver in Doctson, in addition to a very speedy deep threat. I don't hold myself out as some sort of expert on kids talent levels, but I do know that for every Boykin that works out and becomes something special there are a dozen kids that were Big Time recruits with a galaxy of stars that don't develop into diddley-squat.
How do you sift through the many promising kids every year and choose the ones that will be workable, or even good? How do you then convince them to sign with you? How do you then train them into the condition and instruct them in the skill sets necessary to excel? There's a lot of variables in there that sometimes get passed over in these discussions. The SR story is a case in point: He would have flamed out just about anywhere. The only question is if other programs would have put up with it for as long as we evidently did.
IMHO, the old guys (Bumpas, Winder) were superb judges of not only talent, but character. I believe the current staff may be mesmerized by some things and turning a blind eye to others which may wind up making a kid a bust. As LHCGMFP has noted every February, "It ain't the ones you don't get that kill you, it's the ones you do get that don't work out." For every kid that we sign, there were plenty that were considered that we either passed on or were stacked at that position and didn't offer. How many of those kids would have worked out, blossomed into outstanding players, but were judged wanting a year or more before they would ever see a College practice?
"It's tough to make predictions. Especially about the future..."
How do you sift through the many promising kids every year and choose the ones that will be workable, or even good? How do you then convince them to sign with you? How do you then train them into the condition and instruct them in the skill sets necessary to excel? There's a lot of variables in there that sometimes get passed over in these discussions. The SR story is a case in point: He would have flamed out just about anywhere. The only question is if other programs would have put up with it for as long as we evidently did.
IMHO, the old guys (Bumpas, Winder) were superb judges of not only talent, but character. I believe the current staff may be mesmerized by some things and turning a blind eye to others which may wind up making a kid a bust. As LHCGMFP has noted every February, "It ain't the ones you don't get that kill you, it's the ones you do get that don't work out." For every kid that we sign, there were plenty that were considered that we either passed on or were stacked at that position and didn't offer. How many of those kids would have worked out, blossomed into outstanding players, but were judged wanting a year or more before they would ever see a College practice?
"It's tough to make predictions. Especially about the future..."
Agree to disagree I guess, which is fine. Boykin was very good but I kind of see him as a Johnny Manziel type, and i don't think Manziel's success had a whole lot to do with great coaching and development, it was more a case of a kid who played in a perfect system for him, had amazing instincts when plays broke down, and on top of that had a great security blanket (Mike Evans) that could go up and get 50/50 balls with regularity. Manziel was awesome in college but i don't think his coaches developed a great quarterback, if that makes sense.
IMO it was almost embarrassing at times how ill-prepared Sawyer, Robinson and Muhlstein were to play in a game, after a year or two in the system, and in Muhlstein's case, 4+ years.
I do not think we need to settle behind OU or UT. You said that if we win 8 games this year then something is "seriously wrong" with the program. I am saying that if our offense takes some steps and we win 8 games while losing some close ones to teams like OU and UT then I think we are far from something being seriously wrong. It is a matter of circumstances. UT has a really good junior QB and OU has a former national championship QB. We are working with a lesser transfer QB or a true freshman; therefore, there are going to be growing pains.
My point is that you cannot put the state of the program this year solely on wins and losses. No one outside of our fan base thinks we will win the conference compared to how OU and Texas look. Do I think its possible? Absolutely. I am just trying to be realistic. So no I do not think that if we win 8 games, particularly this year, that it means something is seriously wrong with our program. Now if we continue to have egregious offensive woes, i.e. only scoring 17 points a game, then I think the offense needs major overhaul.
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CountryFrog
Active Member
I have no idea what point you think you're making with Boykin. How the hell do you use a guy who was 4th in Heisman voting his Jr year and then was even better his senior year before being injured as an example of poor anything? Then you compare him to a guy who actually won the Heisman to somehow solidify that point?
You actually have a valid argument about our QB recruiting/development recently being poor but in no way whatsoever is Trevone Boykin an example of that.
CountryFrog
Active Member
Nice. You name 3 Heisman winners and a guy who is maybe the best QB in the NFL as guys who were better than Boykin to show how he wasn't THAT good. Then you use his pro career to back up your point and attribute his success at least partially to a WR who has also had almost no success in the NFL. Not to mention that Boykin's failure in the NFL actually had nothing at all to do with his on field ability.
Boykin was a good player, I don't think you understand the point I'm making. He was a guy who just went out and played on instinct. We spread the field, gave him space to move around, and let him play. Just like what I think A&M did with Manziel. It worked great, but QB coaching/development had little to do with it IMO, that is all I'm saying. Put another way, in the same way I don't think Coach Luper and Burns had a whole lot to do with Josh Doctson becoming an All-American, I don't think Cumbie and Meacham were all that instrumental in Boykin's development, other than they ran the style of offense that suited his skills.
When he entered the NFL he was raw as hell in terms of fundamentals of the QB position.
The question is how much of Boykin's success can be attributable to development by the coaching staff, not whether Boykin was really good.
Mean Purple
Active Member
People won't like that take, but there is some reality to it when you really look at it. TB was a baller with a strong arm. Doctson helped him big time. TB would throw some passes that should have never been thrown.
Mean Purple
Active Member
agreed. our line will really have to develop to handle the lines from UT.
As I see it now playing against UT with 205 lb linebackers is kind of a scary thought. They are physical, all that speed we have is going to be negated because they will just pound it right at you 5-6 yards at a time.
Mean Purple
Active Member
I don't see us getting a national championship with this offense. when it sputters (which it has done much of) it can't hang. When it does, we still don't play complimentary football. SC has showed no sign of changing. If qb's develop this year, it would be a pleasant surprise. Rcvrs and line coaching are suspect.
I hope to see as much changes as everybody does, but it is the usual suspects so far.
Mean Purple
Active Member
Our D line looked a bit sluggish in game one. O line too. Hopefully that was just game 1 issues. And yes, undersized players catch up to you in the end. Someone mentioned GPs comments about recruiting and saying he gets the players he wants. What is it he is looking for? Those who recruit the best win. That's just how it works. I'm not gonna pass the punch and tell everyone to just drink. There is a reality. Texas is back recruiting big fast players. OU has picked up. And they both have well paid assistants who had street cred coming into the job.
gohornedfrogs
Tier 1
Besides Ehlinger, they don’t have much right now to run right at you from the backfield.
I’m more worried about those giraffes they have out at receiver.
With Ehlinger at QB they don't really need much else. One thing I noticed is all of their running backs, you can tell they are coached hard to go north-south and lunge forward for an extra yard or two when they are getting tackled. That 19-yard play drive to start the 2nd half the other night is the epitome of what they want to do. Just slowly wear you down. They don't put themselves in 2nd or 3rd and long situations and they are damn hard to stop on 3rd down, that is what concerns me. Seems like they are constantly in 2nd and 5.
Ron Swanson
Full Member
Exactly my thought. Overpowering us with the run game is the least of my worries when we play UT.
LB size is way overrated, IMO. How often are our LB’s struggling to tackle RB’s due to size? I can’t think of any situations.
LB speed is not overrated though. We face way more speedy RBs and interior receivers in the Big 12 than we do Jerome Bettis types.
And yes, I realize a big part of playing LB is shedding blocks from linemen and fullbacks getting to the 2nd level, but agility plays into that as well. It’s not all about pure strength.
gohornedfrogs
Tier 1
They got stuffed on 4th down twice on Saturday. Have a little faith. We’ve stopped better running attacks than that with small linebackers.
Mean Purple
Active Member
Both they and LSU had great rcvr play. Those guys would go up for the ball the likes we have not seen since Doc was here. For all the DB U talk, what I saw was rcvr u. And MENSA is not real smart. Let Sam work the pocket. He has a good pass game. Instead, Mensa lets the kid get clobbered.
