Can anyone at Colonial tell me

[BrewingFrog]

There is an important distinction to be made here. You have two kinds of folks watching golf nowadays: 1.) Tiger fans, and 2.) Golf fans. The Tiger fans are folks who have quite possibly never played golf, have no idea of the difficulty and don't have any clue about course layout, club selection, rough length, bent-or-bermuda, etc. They just want to see Tiger pump his fist. Then you have the actual golf fans...

From the Network TV perspective and the perspective of the PGA Tour (whose salaries, perks, jobs ride on the checks written by the TV Networks), we regular golf fans can simply get used to the idea of golf Tiger fan style. After all, where else are we going to go? They are trying to please a narrow group of watchers whose attention span will waver and wander to something else if the PGA doesn't keep throwing goodies at them. The traditions of the game, the things that make it challenging, in short, the very things that make (made) Colonial so special, the need for accuracy, the need to carefully choose and strategize club selection, have been taken away so that we can see more fist pumping. Looks good on TV.

It sucks.

Why is the U.S. Open so much more fun than the Generic Golf Tournament of the Week? Because the slimy fingers of the PGA aren't on it. The USGA controls it, and as long as they do, we'll have a rough that is deep enough to have been cut with a helicopter, where if you miss your drive, you're scrambling. Where the challenge of golf at that level is still alive.

Oh, and why doesn't Tiger play Colonial? Because when he played it before, it was too tough. So there.

 

[bronco]

I agree with the comment about the green complexes. For the most part there aren't alot of really difficult up and downs if you miss a green. Not alot of sharp slopes, deep traps or wild undulations in the greens. I think you can look at how 18 plays today vs the way it played up until the mid to late 90's and the advent of the titanium driver and the new golf balls. That hole was difficult. Probably driver 5 iron for most pros. Today it is driver wedge or nine iron. The chances of pulling one into the water with a wedge is slim and none for those guys.

 

[PO Frog]

Looks like no one agrees with you. :wacko:
I guess you would also like to watch hockey without goalies or basketball with a rim three times its regular size.
REAL golf fans prefer to see the cream rise to the top on tough courses.
Case in point: This is why the U.S. Open has the highest ratings of any tournament.
Got it?

The 10-year decline in participation and viewership says otherwise. REAL golf fans are few and far between, the anecdotal evidence on this board notwithstanding.

 

[2314@work]

The 10-year decline in participation and viewership says otherwise. REAL golf fans are few and far between, the anecdotal evidence on this board notwithstanding.

Lawyer alert!

 

[PO Frog]

Lawyer alert!

Says the guy that has to torture words to restate his point when the entire premise of his argument (US Open ratings) was undermined with the fact that the Masters blows it away in ratings. You and 5 other people on this board may like watching guys chop it out sideways and play for bogey, but the majority of the country does not.

 

[oldscribe]

In answer to the original question: 1. work along the Trinity in the 1960s-70s made the course 2-3 shots easier. It aint the same layout it was in the 1950s-early 60s; 2. Lack of wind (calm early Thursday when those 62s were shot); 3. Yes, the rough should be allowed to grow another inch or so; 4. Go back to the equipment they used in the Hogan era and winners would shoot maybe 5-6 under par for 72 holes instead of 20 under. This from someone who covered the tourney 1962-82 and saw the changes from No. 1 and No. 4 take a toll.

 

[joejordan]

Billy Shakespeare wrote a play entitled 'Much Ado About Nothing'. I heard it's pretty good, or at least some people liked it.

 

[gohornedfrogs]

Oh, and why doesn't Tiger play Colonial? Because when he played it before, it was too tough. So there.

Not true. Tiger doesn't like to play courses where his length is taken away from him. He can't hit driver at Colonial. It's the same reason he doesn't go to Harbour Town and a few others. It's not that the course is too hard, it's that the rest of the field is brought closer to him because some of the strengths of his game are taken away.

And there's also the issue of a little (perceived) racist rhetoric that was aimed at him when he played there. At least that's a convenient excuse for him. The reality is, Colonial usually falls at an odd time on his schedule and the Memorial and the U.S. Open take higher precedence.

 

[gohornedfrogs]

Why is the U.S. Open so much more fun than the Generic Golf Tournament of the Week? Because the slimy fingers of the PGA aren't on it.

Sorry to pick on you here...

The U.S. Open stands head and shoulders above most other events because it's the national championship, one of four majors, and has been played since 1895. The majority of PGA Tour events have a history less than a third of that, and are not majors.

 

[gohornedfrogs]

Of course, my point is (even though you may be right on ratings - but the US Open is more meaningful) is that golf fans prefer to see the pros play the tougher courses.

Let me preface this by saying that if I had it my way, every PGA Tour course would be set up like a U.S. Open each week.

However, your statement about fans preferring to see pros play tougher course does not pass the test on several levels. The PGA Tour is no slouch at marketing. They understand their fans and their product. More importantly, they understand their own constituents -- those who actually play on their Tour. And they know that if they make the courses too difficult every week, there will be a backlash from the players, who have options to play worldwide and accept appearance fees as well as prize money almost on a weekly basis.

What's happened at Colonial, in particular, is that technology has rendered the course obsolete for many of the best players in the game -- possibly more so than any other course they play. In the days of balata golf balls, where 7,200 yards was a long course, Colonial was a monster because not only did you have to hit it far, you had to be able to hit draws and fades at will. Now, since the ball doesn't spin as much off the driver, players can't hit those shots as easily. So they instead hit 3-woods and hybrids off the tee, yet are left with about the same distance (or less) for their approach shots as they were pre-1995. This is why the field at Colonial has taken such a huge hit in terms of its quality.

 

[gohornedfrogs]

Of course, my point is (even though you may be right on ratings - but the US Open is more meaningful) is that golf fans prefer to see the pros play the tougher courses.
So, I guess (for your sake) I should have written, "That's why the U.S. Open and Masters have the highest ratings." Good gosh, man, stick with the REAL point.

One of the main attractions about the Masters (one that attracts the TV viewers) is that the leaders have a chance to shoot 31, 32, or 33 on the back nine on Sunday.

That very rarely has ever happened in a U.S. Open.

 

[Delmonico]

One of the main attractions about the Masters (one that attracts the TV viewers) is that the leaders have a chance to shoot 31, 32, or 33 on the back nine on Sunday.

maybe they need to thicken the rough at Augusta.....

That very rarely has ever happened in a U.S. Open.

I watched Kevin Costner do it once.

 

[bronco]

maybe they need to thicken the rough at Augusta.....

They don't have "rough" at Augusta sir... They have "the second cut". If Marvin Leonard could have forseen the advent of titanium drivers the size of tennis rackets he would have bought more land so they could lengthen and change the course like Augusta does.



I watched Kevin Costner do it once.

 

[shenanigans]

Message to Colonial:

GROW THE FREAKING ROUGH TO U.S.OPEN LEVELS :angry:

Blame the PGA Tour on this one - they don't allow the rough to grow. So, it's topped off at about 2.5" to start the week.

On another note, the pairing sheets stink. Find someone that actually can coat the sheets so they don't smear and rub to the point where the pairings are illegible.

 

[RaiderHater]

The Masters winner is almost always double digits under unless there is bad weather. The way you make a golf course hard these days for pros is basically by having extremely hard green complexes with fast and hard greens. It has little to so with the course from tee to green unless you make it 7700 yards. Colonial isn't long and it's green complexes are simple and not that difficult. That means touring pros will not ever struggle there unless it's blowing 30 or you trick up the golf course by making the fairways 15 yards wide and the rough a foot tall and that would be as insulting to the gf course as the low scores. The game has changed for the tour because of equipment and better technique and it's not going back.

You also have to remember that par is just relative. Three of the par 5's at Augusta are easily reachable in 2 even for the shorter pro's, the 13th is 505 yards and downhill, most pros were hitting 6 and 7 irons into that green, its really just a hard par 4. So if you subtract about 2 strokes a round to par for the tournament, the winning score is more is not in double digit under par.

Just like when the US open had a 300 yard par 3 in 2007.

 

[First Tee Frog]

13 isn't downhill. It's a sharp dogleg left with a banked fairway. 15 is downhill on the 2nd shot. The beauty of the par 5's at Augusta is risk reward. Birdies and eagles are very possible with well played shots but double bogey is in play as well. For most of the guys on tour every par 5 is just a tough par 4. Not too many unreachable par 5's and the wedge games are so precise they are going to hit it close most of the time. Most golf courses are par 68 for those guys. I am right at tour average as far as distance goes and will get to just about any par 5 I want. US open local qualifier last week I hit driver hybrid to a 600 yard par 5. Crosswind and firm golf course but with the new equipment there just aren't many par 5's these guys can't get too

Pretty sure gohornedfrogs can recall that 300 yard par 3 as well as anyone. He knows of what he speaks so you guys would be wise to listen when he speaks

 

[OmniscienceFrog]

You mean like the Masters with Johnson, Immelman, Schwartzel?

 

[TopFrog]

Major league pitchers should start pitching underhand to make it easier for the batter to hit home runs, since that's what everybody wants.

 

[InterestedObserver]

Let me touch on a few points:

1. As many of stated, the Tour doesn't let the rough grow and has the mindset of birdies=ratings. That said, with the early date this year, the rough is hardly penal at all. It just hasn't had time to get any density to it. The relatively cool nights we've had the last 3-4 weeks have made growing any rough impossible.

2. Listing Herron, Flesch, and Sabbatini is pretty unfair. The other winners over the past decade have been Mickleson (twice), Perry (twice), Garcia, Stricker, Price, and Johnson. Really a pretty good list.

3. While technology has lowered scores at Colonial, it's done the same at every course on Tour. Just look at the scores at Riviera, Pebble, Torrey, etc and it's all relative.

4. Mother Nature hasn't been a friend during tournament week in several years. This is the first year in five that we've had any measurable wind at all. The average wind speed last year was about 2mph.

5. The course still has the ability to get some teeth. The course plays about 2.5 strokes per round easier this week than it would a month from now. That's 100% due to the rough getting a chance to really come in.

6. Personally, I wish Tiger would come back to Colonial. People saying he can't play the course are flat ignorant as he finished in 4th place during his one appearance, despite two double-bogies on Sunday.

7. David Toms is just going nuts this week. 62-62? Amazing. The next 69 players are all within 8 strokes of eachother which usually means there will be some pretty exciting golf. It'll be interesting to see what happens today.

8. It's still a great event and while the field suffered with a bad date this year, that will be corrected next year when Colonial moves back to Memorial Day weekend. The Volvo event in Europe pulled several players that are regulars in Fort Worth. The event gets Fort Worth recognition that it wouldn't get otherwise, raises over $6million for charities, and has an economic impact of over $40 million.

 

[Frogs1983]

Let me preface this by saying that if I had it my way, every PGA Tour course would be set up like a U.S. Open each week.

However, your statement about fans preferring to see pros play tougher course does not pass the test on several levels. The PGA Tour is no slouch at marketing. They understand their fans and their product. More importantly, they understand their own constituents -- those who actually play on their Tour. And they know that if they make the courses too difficult every week, there will be a backlash from the players, who have options to play worldwide and accept appearance fees as well as prize money almost on a weekly basis.

What's happened at Colonial, in particular, is that technology has rendered the course obsolete for many of the best players in the game -- possibly more so than any other course they play. In the days of balata golf balls, where 7,200 yards was a long course, Colonial was a monster because not only did you have to hit it far, you had to be able to hit draws and fades at will. Now, since the ball doesn't spin as much off the driver, players can't hit those shots as easily. So they instead hit 3-woods and hybrids off the tee, yet are left with about the same distance (or less) for their approach shots as they were pre-1995. This is why the field at Colonial has taken such a huge hit in terms of its quality.

Think there will ever be a day when the Tournament officials make the decision to move the Colonial Tournament to another course to keep up with change in golf technology?I know it would lbe be strange.Kind of like "The Cotton Bowl" game not being played at The Cotton Bowl.