The "Grow Them Up" Theory and Why We Are Always Young

[LeagueCityFrog]

Long read....

I went back and looked at the previous recruiting classes and it is easy to understand why TCU football has been perpetually in need to " Grow Them Up." Very few of these players are still at TCU from being recruited out of high school to being a 4th or 5th year physically matured athlete ready to lead our team to victory.

Is it student grades? Are we perpetually missing on evaluations? Injuries? Attitudes from the players or the coaches? Is this common across the Big XII? Does Clemson, Ohio State, and Alabama constantly have issues with a lack of 4th and 5th year seasoned players or do they have so many 4 and 5 star kids, who cares? I don't know if this is Gary's issue or not. I'm full onboard with Coach P and the way he calls defense and the juice he brings to the defensive players. I am also sick of crappy Fall football seasons and watching TCU football, despite how much money has been dumped into it, lose to coaches that just got he job at schools we previously whipped. I.E. Matt Campbell at ISU taking Coach P's glory, the new second year coach at WVU, we lost to KANSAS recently in football, Sonny Dykes slapping us around at SMU of all places. Losing the Baylor, ever. K-State's new coach telling TCU what is up. Enough is enough. We are TCU Football and we need to get back to playing our physical brand of ball and teams being hurt the week after they play us and begging for that to be their coming bye week.

So here we go...

2016 Class- 23 Signed - 1 Currently active on TCU's football team to contribute, 4 went to the NFL, 3 still here ( 2 of which are hurt, 1 still active Kelton Hollis), 9 of them quit the team or never showed up.

2017 Class - 24 Signed - 6 Currently active on TCU's football team to contribute, 1 went to the NFL, 9 of them quit the team.

2018 Class - 24 Enrolled - 18 still here, 6 quit TCU football or were asked to leave or never made it.

2019 Class - 27 Enrolled - 25 still here, 2 gone.

2020 Class -25 Enrolled - 25 still here.

I go back to every time we play Oklahoma, they always have the body types that look ready to play. You watch SEC games and it is more of the same. Despite what looks like another [ Finebaum ] of a season on the horizon if we don't beat Kansas on the road AND SMU at home on December 12th, I still believe in Gary to fix this. He deserves to leave TCU the way Stoops left OU. That 2014 TCU football team was one of the best team's I've ever seen and Coach P built it with junior and senior, physically matured, Horned Frogs.

This season, there was a flow and purpose on the TCU offense to the way the Iowa State and K-State games were being called by Coach Meacham. Unfortunately, we played TCU QB2 to start that game and our O-Line was horrendous. We beat Baylor, UT, and Texas Tech with Meacham calling the plays. Our O-Line is a massive issue. The D-Line looked fixed vs Texas Tech, then it went back to being awful and getting whipped at West Virginia. My vote, we beat KU and SMU, the purple mob wanting heads gives Coach P a bit of a reprieve. We will be 5-5 if we beat KU and SMU, but maybe lose one to OSU, and that is a maybe loss. OSU's offense hasn't delivered in 2020. We go to a bowl game, which Gary usually finds a way to win that one. We finish 6-5 and then we address the offense and I think most importantly we address not losing a bunch of talented Sophomores, Transfers, and Freshman on this team and be ready to wage war in 2021.

Go Frogs!

 

[PO Frog]

Long read....

I went back and looked at the previous recruiting classes and it is easy to understand why TCU football has been perpetually in need to " Grow Them Up." Very few of these players are still at TCU from being recruited out of high school to being a 4th or 5th year physically matured athlete ready to lead our team to victory.

Is it student grades? Are we perpetually missing on evaluations? Injuries? Attitudes from the players or the coaches? Is this common across the Big XII? Does Clemson, Ohio State, and Alabama constantly have issues with a lack of 4th and 5th year seasoned players or do they have so many 4 and 5 star kids, who cares? I don't know if this is Gary's issue or not. I'm full onboard with Coach P and the way he calls defense and the juice he brings to the defensive players. I am also sick of crappy Fall football seasons and watching TCU football, despite how much money has been dumped into it, lose to coaches that just got he job at schools we previously whipped. I.E. Matt Campbell at ISU taking Coach P's glory, the new second year coach at WVU, we lost to KANSAS recently in football, Sonny Dykes slapping us around at SMU of all places. Losing the Baylor, ever. K-State's new coach telling TCU what is up. Enough is enough. We are TCU Football and we need to get back to playing our physical brand of ball and teams being hurt the week after they play us and begging for that to be their coming bye week.

So here we go...

2016 Class- 23 Signed - 1 Currently active on TCU's football team to contribute, 4 went to the NFL, 3 still here ( 2 of which are hurt, 1 still active Kelton Hollis), 9 of them quit the team or never showed up.

2017 Class - 24 Signed - 6 Currently active on TCU's football team to contribute, 1 went to the NFL, 9 of them quit the team.

2018 Class - 24 Enrolled - 18 still here, 6 quit TCU football or were asked to leave or never made it.

2019 Class - 27 Enrolled - 25 still here, 2 gone.

2020 Class -25 Enrolled - 25 still here.

I go back to every time we play Oklahoma, they always have the body types that look ready to play. You watch SEC games and it is more of the same. Despite what looks like another [ Cumbie’s red zone playcalling ] of a season on the horizon if we don't beat Kansas on the road AND SMU at home on December 12th, I still believe in Gary to fix this. He deserves to leave TCU the way Stoops left OU. That 2014 TCU football team was one of the best team's I've ever seen and Coach P built it with junior and senior, physically matured, Horned Frogs.

This season, there was a flow and purpose on the TCU offense to the way the Iowa State and K-State games were being called by Coach Meacham. Unfortunately, we played TCU QB2 to start that game and our O-Line was horrendous. We beat Baylor, UT, and Texas Tech with Meacham calling the plays. Our O-Line is a massive issue. The D-Line looked fixed vs Texas Tech, then it went back to being awful and getting whipped at West Virginia. My vote, we beat KU and SMU, the purple mob wanting heads gives Coach P a bit of a reprieve. We will be 5-5 if we beat KU and SMU, but maybe lose one to OSU.And that is a maybe lose. OSU's offense hasn't delivered in 2020. We go to a bowl game, which Gary usually finds a way to win that one. We finish 6-5 and then we address the offense and I think most importantly we address not losing a bunch of talented Sophomores, Transfers, and Freshman on this team and be ready to wage war in 2021.

Go Frogs!

We said this last year. And the year before. Let's give him another decade or so to figure it out and grow'em up.

 

[BrewingFrog]

Are we perpetually missing on evaluations?

2016 Class- 23 Signed - 1 Currently active on TCU's football team to contribute, 4 went to the NFL, 3 still here ( 2 of which are hurt, 1 still active Kelton Hollis), 9 of them quit the team or never showed up.

2017 Class - 24 Signed - 6 Currently active on TCU's football team to contribute, 1 went to the NFL, 9 of them quit the team.

2018 Class - 24 Enrolled - 18 still here, 6 quit TCU football or were asked to leave or never made it.

2019 Class - 27 Enrolled - 25 still here, 2 gone.

2020 Class -25 Enrolled - 25 still here.

The question sort of answers itself, looking at the numbers. As GMFP has stated in the past, "It isn't the ones you missed on, it's the ones you get that don't work out." Part of the evaluation process is "Is the kid a head case? Lockerroom cancer?" and must be weighed on the scale of "Will his talent offset these issues?" Seemingly, the answer was "No" on quite a few.

Among the many failures of The Derp Brothers is this habit of taking flyers on guys that clearly have some issues. We never see these issues, being distant from the scene. But the guys up close have to see that there is something not quite right. Those '16 and '17 numbers are awful. The more recent numbers look promising, so perhaps there is hope yet...

Still, to my mind having seen the 2020 Frogs, I would have had each and every Offensive Coach's stuff piled up on the curb after the first game. My opinion has not changed a whit with the passing of the Season. Fire 'em all.

 

[LeagueCityFrog]

The question sort of answers itself, looking at the numbers. As GMFP has stated in the past, "It isn't the ones you missed on, it's the ones you get that don't work out." Part of the evaluation process is "Is the kid a head case? Lockerroom cancer?" and must be weighed on the scale of "Will his talent offset these issues?" Seemingly, the answer was "No" on quite a few.

Among the many failures of The Derp Brothers is this habit of taking flyers on guys that clearly have some issues. We never see these issues, being distant from the scene. But the guys up close have to see that there is something not quite right. Those '16 and '17 numbers are awful. The more recent numbers look promising, so perhaps there is hope yet...

Still, to my mind having seen the 2020 Frogs, I would have had each and every Offensive Coach's stuff piled up on the curb after the first game. My opinion has not changed a whit with the passing of the Season. Fire 'em all.

Let's hope we can get at least 2 more regualr season wins in 2020 to get to .500 ball then win our bowl game!

 

[West Coast Johnny]

Its a useless analysis unless you have statistics from other colleges to compare.

 

[Eight]

Its a useless analysis unless you have statistics from other colleges to compare.

curious to know what the norm for class attrition is at the p5 level

 

[steelfrog]

Also would like to know if the defensive system is so complex it takes years to master which would not seem to be an advantage.

On offense we simply look inept and have for years which means the coaches clearly don’t know what they’re doing. And since GP has washed his hands of offense there’s no ultimate accountability at any level.

 

[CountryFrog]

I agree, it was a long read

 

[Sebastian S]

Our players don’t learn the system until their senior year.

 

[4th. down]

The question sort of answers itself, looking at the numbers. As GMFP has stated in the past, "It isn't the ones you missed on, it's the ones you get that don't work out." Part of the evaluation process is "Is the kid a head case? Lockerroom cancer?" and must be weighed on the scale of "Will his talent offset these issues?" Seemingly, the answer was "No" on quite a few.

Among the many failures of The Derp Brothers is this habit of taking flyers on guys that clearly have some issues. We never see these issues, being distant from the scene. But the guys up close have to see that there is something not quite right. Those '16 and '17 numbers are awful. The more recent numbers look promising, so perhaps there is hope yet...

Still, to my mind having seen the 2020 Frogs, I would have had each and every Offensive Coach's stuff piled up on the curb after the first game. My opinion has not changed a whit with the passing of the Season. Fire 'em all.

Unfortunately, all true, if we are being realistic. These continuous band aid applications are not working. IF a major change ever happens, I hope that the administration will bring in a renowned consultant to give us a truthful appraisal of what we have and what we need to do, before we attempt to hire a head coach.

 

[Pharm Frog]

Unfortunately, all true, if we are being realistic. These continuous band aid applications are not working. IF a major change ever happens, I hope that the administration will bring in a renowned consultant to give us a truthful appraisal of what we have and what we need to do, before we attempt to hire a head coach.

I want NOTHING to do with consultancy on things like that. NOTHING. If you don't have the right decision makers in place, replace them with people who are trusted to make the right decisions. If your administration is blind to the needs and vision of the present and future, replace the administration with persons possessing more insight, interest, and clarity. If they can't think in possibilities but focus on limitations and constraints, move them out. But bringing in a consultant that has no short or long term skin in the game is a bad move IMO. And, they ain't that smart in the first place. They have their own system and approach and make it "appear" like it's being tailored to your needs when in fact it's not.

 

[4th. down]

I want NOTHING to do with consultancy on things like that. NOTHING. If you don't have the right decision makers in place, replace them with people who are trusted to make the right decisions. If your administration is blind to the needs and vision of the present and future, replace the administration with persons possessing more insight, interest, and clarity. If they can't think in possibilities but focus on limitations and constraints, move them out. But bringing in a consultant that has no short or long term skin in the game is a bad move IMO. And, they ain't that smart in the first place. They have their own system and approach and make it "appear" like it's being tailored to your needs when in fact it's not.

An interesting take for sure on our current situation. I don't TRUST our administration to make this decision on their own. At least get input from Andy, LT, Hughes, etc.

 

[BrewingFrog]

An interesting take for sure on our current situation. I don't TRUST our administration to make this decision on their own. At least get input from Andy, LT, Hughes, etc.

A blind man can see what's wrong: There's incompetent boobs on the payroll that can't do their jobs. Team performance and achievement is suffering due to their inability to provide guidance, sound instruction and simple motivation. The Head Coach refuses to fire clearly worthless subordinates for reasons entirely his own. Thus, the problem.

Solution: After three years of bungling and ineptitude, leave the Head Coach a choice: Get rid of the inept subordinates, or we look at getting rid of you.

Hiring some sharpshooter and paying him a pile of money makes no sense. Hell, I just illustrated your problems and offered up a solution. Buy me a beer and we'll call it even.

 

[4th. down]

A blind man can see what's wrong: There's incompetent boobs on the payroll that can't do their jobs. Team performance and achievement is suffering due to their inability to provide guidance, sound instruction and simple motivation. The Head Coach refuses to fire clearly worthless subordinates for reasons entirely his own. Thus, the problem.

Solution: After three years of bungling and ineptitude, leave the Head Coach a choice: Get rid of the inept subordinates, or we look at getting rid of you.

Hiring some sharpshooter and paying him a pile of money makes no sense. Hell, I just illustrated your problems and offered up a solution. Buy me a beer and we'll call it even.

Your analysis may be spot on BUT "After three years of bungling and ineptitude, leave the Head Coach a choice: Get rid of the inept subordinates, or we look at getting rid of you." WHO is going to tell him that and has the authority to fire him? I'll go ahead and answer that for you......NO ONE.

 

[BrewingFrog]

Your analysis may be spot on BUT "After three years of bungling and ineptitude, leave the Head Coach a choice: Get rid of the inept subordinates, or we look at getting rid of you." WHO is going to tell him that and has the authority to fire him? I'll go ahead and answer that for you......NO ONE.

I used to mosey by the R.O.T.C. office in the bowels of Winston-Scott back in the day. On one wall was a series of pictures, denoting the chain of command. It was a simple reminder of who was in charge, and in what order.

To gaze at the chain of command at TCU, AD sits over the Head Football Coach. Theoretically, he can fire him should he choose to do so. However, as you point out, there are practical considerations that do not show up in the simple chain of command.

Today, November 17, Donati may not have the backing of the restless herd of backers who, just 10-15 years ago shelled out literally millions to build that magnificent Stadium. As Del Conte said at the time, "Gary did the talking, I just followed along and collected the checks." We're not a "What Have You Done For Me Lately" outfit and never have been. But repeated, avoidable failure is galling. That support is not what it once was.

As a Program, we cannot have incompetence ruining our product. All involved understand this. It must be made clear that further failure is not acceptable. Playtime is over. And the only way to achieve the successful transmission of this message is for the recipient to know that he is out of residual goodwill.

 

[4th. down]

I used to mosey by the R.O.T.C. office in the bowels of Winston-Scott back in the day. On one wall was a series of pictures, denoting the chain of command. It was a simple reminder of who was in charge, and in what order.

To gaze at the chain of command at TCU, AD sits over the Head Football Coach. Theoretically, he can fire him should he choose to do so. However, as you point out, there are practical considerations that do not show up in the simple chain of command.

Today, November 17, Donati may not have the backing of the restless herd of backers who, just 10-15 years ago shelled out literally millions to build that magnificent Stadium. As Del Conte said at the time, "Gary did the talking, I just followed along and collected the checks." We're not a "What Have You Done For Me Lately" outfit and never have been. But repeated, avoidable failure is galling. That support is not what it once was.

As a Program, we cannot have incompetence ruining our product. All involved understand this. It must be made clear that further failure is not acceptable. Playtime is over. And the only way to achieve the successful transmission of this message is for the recipient to know that he is out of residual goodwill.

EXCELLENT, but is Donati going to tell him his goodwill is running out? That's my primary beef, no one in the administration has the cojones to face up to and react in a positive manner......it ain't there.

 

[BrewingFrog]

EXCELLENT, but is Donati going to tell him his goodwill is running out? That's my primary beef, no one in the administration has the cojones to face up to and react in a positive manner......it ain't there.

Again, Gary may be an introvert, but he isn't stupid. He fully realizes that the ice beneath him has melted quite a bit, and that his stubbornness involving his obviously incompetent subordinates is what is stoking the heat. He either values these subordinates more than his job, or he simply doesn't care. Either way, he's facing a lot of trouble, and it's all on him.

Like I mused in another thread, it's ironic that what many consider a virtue, loyalty to ones subordinates, is what is doing him in. The flipside is, incompetent subordinates are not doing him, or us, any favors. He well knows that if he has a kid who can't do the job, he rides the pine. Why he can't see that this applies to Coaches as well is mystifying...

 

[steelfrog]

Gary only needs to keep a handful of Rich's happy. There's a significant contingent of folks at TCU in admin or teaching who not only don't care about the football program, they'd be happy if it went away.

 

[Eight]

Also would like to know if the defensive system is so complex it takes years to master which would not seem to be an advantage.

On offense we simply look inept and have for years which means the coaches clearly don’t know what they’re doing. And since GP has washed his hands of offense there’s no ultimate accountability at any level.

nothing wrong with having earned a doctorate as a qualifier for a job

unless that job is playing linebacker and/or secondary at tcu where you don't get 6-7 years to master the subject matter

 

[Wexahu]

nothing wrong with having earned a doctorate as a qualifier for a job

unless that job is playing linebacker and/or secondary at tcu where you don't get 6-7 years to master the subject matter

I don't think it's too complex. Too many underclassmen have played well for me to ever think that. It's just as likely our more senior laden defenses were better because they were physically better at 22 than they were 19 or 20 after a couple more years in the weight room.