FWST: TCU shouldn't feel burned by law school deal

[Purple Cavalier]

Here's laying myself out without really needing to. I"m the guy quoted in the artilce. While I think the essence of what I meant in my remarks came through, a few of the facts/qoutes in the article weren't true. First, I never called Texas Weslyan an "unranked" law school. I did acknowledge the fact that it is one of the lower ranked schools in the state. This is due in large part to its short life. While it is true some good (too early to say great) lawyers have graduated and are practicing reputable, honorable and significant law careers, the lower level of the graduating classes are faced with either no jobs or the burden of being a sole practitioner right out of school. This is a risky move by A&M and would have been even riskier for TCU. 2. While I have chaired alumni related events and organizations, I did not suggest I had been the chair of the Alumni Association. No idea where he got that. 3. While I have expressed to both the administration and friends who serve on the board that I really liked the idea of TCU getting a law school, it is really a stretch to call that lobbying. That is a level of importance to my contacts that is undeserved.

Ok, that's off my chest.

I stand by the point that while I wish TCU had or was considering a law school, I can understand in this economy, with as much difficulty young lawyers are having int he job market, the over-abundance of law grads nationally, and the cost that TCU would have had to pay for the school and charge for tuition, I cannot chriticize letting this opportunity go by.

I'm ok if A&M succeeds. In fact, by being able to keep tuition lower, it may. But there are lots of reasons for TCU to 'hold its powder' and I wonlt blast them for having done so.

 

[rifram09]

Here's laying myself out without really needing to. I"m the guy quoted in the artilce. While I think the essence of what I meant in my remarks came through, a few of the facts/qoutes in the article weren't true. First, I never called Texas Weslyan an "unranked" law school. I did acknowledge the fact that it is one of the lower ranked schools in the state. This is due in large part to its short life. While it is true some good (too early to say great) lawyers have graduated and are practicing reputable, honorable and significant law careers, the lower level of the graduating classes are faced with either no jobs or the burden of being a sole practitioner right out of school. This is a risky move by A&M and would have been even riskier for TCU. 2. While I have chaired alumni related events and organizations, I did not suggest I had been the chair of the Alumni Association. No idea where he got that. 3. While I have expressed to both the administration and friends who serve on the board that I really liked the idea of TCU getting a law school, it is really a stretch to call that lobbying. That is a level of importance to my contacts that is undeserved.

Ok, that's off my chest.

I stand by the point that while I wish TCU had or was considering a law school, I can understand in this economy, with as much difficulty young lawyers are having int he job market, the over-abundance of law grads nationally, and the cost that TCU would have had to pay for the school and charge for tuition, I cannot chriticize letting this opportunity go by.

I'm ok if A&M succeeds. In fact, by being able to keep tuition lower, it may. But there are lots of reasons for TCU to 'hold its powder' and I wonlt blast them for having done so.

This is where I've come to. Especially the point that A&M has a better chance to succeed by offering far lower tuition than we would have been able to offer.

Part of me just wishes it wasn't in FW so that we still had an opportunity to establish a law school in the future. We'll probably never start a law school to compete with A&M in FW, and it is even less likely that we would start a law school in another city. So our options are effectively forever closed. That is the only part that sucks.

With that said, you can never really know. Maybe, after their 40 year lease is up, A&M will want to completely break away from Wesleyan and move their law school to their main campus in college station (wouldn't count on it, but I am talking years and years from now). At that point, we may have an opportunity to get a law school again. Long shot, but who knows? In the mean time, the law school dream is dead.

 

[steelfrog]

Timely article:




http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/the_pedigree_problem_are_law_school_ties_choking_the_profession

 

[The Artist Formerly Known as PhormerPhrog]

Ok...so did this ever go through?  TWU's website still has a disclaimer that the two schools agreed to a letter of intent and had until 6/1/13 to consummate the deal.
 
http://txwes.edu/tamu/disclaimer.aspx

 

[HToady]

TCU will never have a Law School and will never have a Medical School.
 
Hopefully they will have a National Championship Football Program. That's all I care about.

 

[Big Frog II]

It would have been fine by me if TCU had bought the TWU Law School at the time, but not at the price they were asking.

 

[Limp Lizard]

Despite how the school's real ranking turns out, aggies will be swearing it is one of the top 10 in the country in a couple of years.

 

[The Artist Formerly Known as PhormerPhrog]

Despite how the school's real ranking turns out, aggies will be swearing it is one of the top 10 in the country in a couple of years.

 
And they'll hang a banner in the cafeteria.  I hear they'll bury the mascots at sea in the Water Gardens.

 

[Froglaw]

"Should TCU have bought Wesleyan Law 10 years ago?"
 
No.
 
Too few jobs for new lawyers.
 
Tuition too high for those who do graduate and get a license.
 
Only shortage of lawyers is in the rural areas of Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Alaska, etc.  (I am not kidding).
 
The new Downtown Dallas School of Law is going to be graduating future time share sales staff.

 

[The Artist Formerly Known as PhormerPhrog]

No.

 
So no, it never went through?

 

[cheese83]

I don't see the point in buying it & glad we didn't. Don't think it was ranked very well & from what I understand that's really important. Isn't it ranked by tier 1, 2, & 3?

 

[Get Your Frogs Up]

 
So no, it never went through?

 
Still in the transition period.  The dean of TWU Law School recently stepped down and A&M approved an Interim Dean, Aric Short, who had formerly served as Associate Dean for Academic Affairs.

 

[The Artist Formerly Known as PhormerPhrog]

I don't see the point in buying it & glad we didn't. Don't think it was ranked very well & from what I understand that's really important. Isn't it ranked by tier 1, 2, & 3?

 
Plus they're NAIA, right? 

 

[MAcFroggy]

TCU probably does not have the resources available to them to have made the investment worthwhile.  TCU has a great undergraduate program and a solid graduate business program, TWU law is terrible.  It would be difficult to get the law school on the same level as the other programs.  I am not saying everybody who graduates is a terrible lawyer or anything.  There are probably tons of good/great lawyers that went to TWU, but objectively speaking it is a really bad law school.  Probably one of the worst in the country.  It would take A LOT of money to make the program better.  New quality law professors would have to be hired, facilities would need to be improved, marketing/rebranding would have to be performed, etc.  Granted this is a blogsite but here is an excerpt:
 
"A prospective student who visits the school's web site will find no employment statistics of any kind, but thanks to the work of Law School Transparency and others it's now possible to examine the school's placement data beyond the phony "employed at nine months" number advertised in the USNWR rankings.
What that data show are the following facts for the 223 members of the class of 2011:

(1) Five graduates got jobs with law firms of more than ten attorneys.
(2) Nearly 10% of the class listed themselves as solo practitioners.
(3) The school produced zero federal or state judicial clerks.
(4)  No graduate got a public interest job (including public defender positions).
(5) Nearly 30% of the class was either unemployed or had an unknown employment status.
 
Basically, almost nobody got a job, if a job is defined as "an acceptable employment outcome given the cost of attendance."  (That cost is north of $160K if debt financed).
From a public-regarding standpoint, there is no conceivable reason why this law school shouldn't be shut down at once -- a judgment which apparently enough prospective law students now share that they've put the enterprise's future in serious jeopardy"
 
 
http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2012/06/gone-to-texas.html
 
TAMU has much more money and available resources to turn the law school around.  Especially with a long term time horizon, I could see this as a good thing for TAMU.  But it will be very expensive to get the law school on anywhere close to equal footing as their business, engineering, vet programs, etc

 

[The Artist Formerly Known as PhormerPhrog]

We just hired a guy (26) straight out of TWU.  I asked him about it and he said it was not worth it to go into debt for that kind of education.

 

[gohornedfrogs]

The deal was valued by both schools at $80 Million Net Present Value.

If the price was too much for TCU, everyone understands. But TCU folks should resist in finding fault with Fort Worth's only law school.

It's actually a good and much appreciated law school and fellow TCUers just sound jealous and spiteful when they start doing all of their trash talking.

So when does TWU join the PAC?

 

[Frognosticator]

TCU probably does not have the resources available to them to have made the investment worthwhile.  TCU has a great undergraduate program and a solid graduate business program, TWU law is terrible.  It would be difficult to get the law school on the same level as the other programs.  I am not saying everybody who graduates is a terrible lawyer or anything.  There are probably tons of good/great lawyers that went to TWU, but objectively speaking it is a really bad law school.  Probably one of the worst in the country.  It would take A LOT of money to make the program better.  New quality law professors would have to be hired, facilities would need to be improved, marketing/rebranding would have to be performed, etc.  Granted this is a blogsite but here is an excerpt:
 
"A prospective student who visits the school's web site will find no employment statistics of any kind, but thanks to the work of Law School Transparency and others it's now possible to examine the school's placement data beyond the phony "employed at nine months" number advertised in the USNWR rankings.
What that data show are the following facts for the 223 members of the class of 2011:

(1) Five graduates got jobs with law firms of more than ten attorneys.
(2) Nearly 10% of the class listed themselves as solo practitioners.
(3) The school produced zero federal or state judicial clerks.
(4)  No graduate got a public interest job (including public defender positions).
(5) Nearly 30% of the class was either unemployed or had an unknown employment status.
 
Basically, almost nobody got a job, if a job is defined as "an acceptable employment outcome given the cost of attendance."  (That cost is north of $160K if debt financed).
From a public-regarding standpoint, there is no conceivable reason why this law school shouldn't be shut down at once -- a judgment which apparently enough prospective law students now share that they've put the enterprise's future in serious jeopardy"
 
 
http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2012/06/gone-to-texas.html
 
TAMU has much more money and available resources to turn the law school around.  Especially with a long term time horizon, I could see this as a good thing for TAMU.  But it will be very expensive to get the law school on anywhere close to equal footing as their business, engineering, vet programs, etc

You might want to review the facts a little more before you open your fat trap.  You conveniently ignored the 39 that got employed in a business, meaning in-house counsel.  In addition, 109 got jobs that required a bar passage, so that means a lawyer position.
 
Also, ALL schools had a tough time placing graduates in the past couple of years.  2011 may have been the worst year in 3 decades for lawyers. Go look at other schools employment rates.  They're all bad right now.  
 
Look at LSAT applications: 54K last year, down from 100K just 8 years ago.  Its really bad out there.
 
So saying that TWU is a bad school based on one years employment records (the worst in forever) is stupid.  As a proud TWU grad who probably makes way more than you, go get a scheissing clue before you post dogshit.

 

[The Artist Formerly Known as PhormerPhrog]

So when does TWU join the PAC?

 

 

[The Artist Formerly Known as PhormerPhrog]

You might want to review the facts a little more before you open your fat trap.  You conveniently ignored the 39 that got employed in a business, meaning in-house counsel.  In addition, 109 got jobs that required a bar passage, so that means a lawyer position.
 
Also, ALL schools had a tough time placing graduates in the past couple of years.  2011 may have been the worst year in 3 decades for lawyers. Go look at other schools employment rates.  They're all bad right now.  
 
Look at LSAT applications: 54K last year, down from 100K just 8 years ago.  Its really bad out there.
 
So saying that TWU is a bad school based on one years employment records (the worst in forever) is stupid.  As a proud TWU grad who probably makes way more than you, go get a (mating between Steel & Crunch) clue before you post dogshit.

 
Dang...that deserves a Sheldon as well.
 

 

[YA]

You might want to review the facts a little more before you open your fat trap.  You conveniently ignored the 39 that got employed in a business, meaning in-house counsel.  In addition, 109 got jobs that required a bar passage, so that means a lawyer position.
 
Also, ALL schools had a tough time placing graduates in the past couple of years.  2011 may have been the worst year in 3 decades for lawyers. Go look at other schools employment rates.  They're all bad right now.  
 
Look at LSAT applications: 54K last year, down from 100K just 8 years ago.  Its really bad out there.
 
So saying that TWU is a bad school based on one years employment records (the worst in forever) is stupid.  As a proud TWU grad who probably makes way more than you, go get a (mating between Steel & Crunch) clue before you post dogshit.

Wesleyan has a higher bar passage rate than South Texas, St Mary's, and depending on test date, higher than tech and smu.  A Wesleyan grad in one Summer test date had the highest grade of ANY person who took the test.
 
As far as clerks go, there are many who have clerked for state and federal judges.
 
MAcFroggy--your post is utter BS.