• The KillerFrogs

I concur with the thoughts.

Zebra, you’re a personal fave poster, but respectfully, I disagree utterly.

Let’s pretend someone wrote the same thing about lawyers. “Just try taking the bar exam and when you fail then go to school for years and dedicate yourself to learning the law and then if you pass then put yourself in the courtroom and ….blah blah”

Lawyers make tons of sacrifices and work very hard to get where they are and law is extremely competitive and difficult. BUT

There are some bad lawyers out there. Really terrible ones who are rotten at their jobs. There are dishonest lawyers and lawyers on the take and lawyers who are incompetent and lawyers who make critical mistakes. Lawyers who aren’t smart enough to get the job done well and lawyers who don’t belong in the profession. They are yelled at and criticized and sued and many times they deserve it.

Same for refs. I’m convinced that there are refs who don’t belong out there at all and refs who are on the take (Mavs v Heat series sealed that deal for me to a certainty). It’s a good ol boy network in many ways (see sons with “famous” ref dads accelerating to the NFL).

In short, if refs take heat for doing a terrible / incompetent / dishonest job, they are criticized and yelled at and many times they deserve it. They don’t get sued so it’s not close to as risky as it is for the lawyers. Refs deserve what they get most of the time IMO. The “getting yelled at” part is a part of the job and I am unmoved by the FB poster’s high-handed post.

How I wish the refs out there were of your quality!
I appreciate the difficult jobs officials have and feel like they do try to call the game correctly the overwhelming majority of the time but the Mavs v Heat you cite is something that that is just an all-time low in the profession. I don't think the officials were on the take but they do have bosses (the league) and no one will ever convince me that Cuban's ongoing dispute with the Commissioner about officiating did not result in the word going out to the officials to screw the Mavericks. Same for the Cowboys. Jerry went to war with Goodell over the Ezekiel Elliot investigation and was so pissed that he tried to quash his contract extension and the Cowboys have played the other team and the officials in every crucial game since. I don't think it's a coincidence and neither do their players who have resorted to publicly complaining about the officiating disparity in their games.
 
@Zebra Frog
I have been watching the Div III Championship game, and it seems like the officials are very young. In the CFB model do officials start at the lower levels and then work their way up to FCS and then FBS over time? Do any of them start right off at FBS? I guess I am also curious how they decide which specialty to choose, like Back Judge or Linesman. Or can all officials work all of the different specialties? And I guss the last question in this category is how does one become the Head Ref? Is it its own specialty, or do they come from the other specialties, by invitation?

In a separate direction, I am curious about pay. Are all officials paid the same, from Div III to Div I? If not, are there different pay scales from say, Big 12 to SEC? Finally, is pay figured for the season, or per game? I don't need to know actual dollar figures, just the basics of how it all works.
Great questions!

Yes, you will normally see younger officials working Div III games, even playoffs. I think most P5 conferences require that their new-hires work a minimum number of games in smaller divisions. I have never seen an official go straight to a P5 conference from high school. They just aren't ready and have to gain experience working D3, D2 and G5 games. As for their choosing which position they work, the only requirement for this is for Umpires, they must be able to hide their Snickers someplace, which means they are usually a little larger than most of the other crew members. :D Actually, when officials first start, most of the time they start by working the flank positions, H and L. Then, they might transition to F, B, or S depending on what they feel comfortable doing. One of the things that college supervisors look for is how well they move on the field. Very seldom will you find a deep official that is overweight and can't run. Most can work any position on the field, and sometimes do if another official gets injured and there isn't an alternate available. Sometimes, an official will be working as an F or S, but the supervisor will want to move him to the B position as that is what he has an opening for. This is a seamless transition for most. To be hired as a P5 official, the supervisor is always trying to find somebody that has "the look." As for becoming an R, most just gravitate to wanting the responsibility of working that position. A lot of officials that work other positions just don't want to be an R. In some conferences, they will take an R out of a G5 conference and have him work the C spot or another position for a year or 2 before moving him to the R, others will move him into the league as an R immediately. It just depends on the supervisor.

As for pay, the lower divisions do not make anywhere near with P5 does. In fact, those that work junior colleges and DIII games rarely get paid enough to cover their expenses. They spend more than what they get paid. The higher you get, the more you make. Some P5 conferences pay more than others, but they are fairly close. Some will pay you a flat fee per game. This means they have to cover their travel, hotels, food, out of whatever that fee is. If you are lucky and have a year where you can drive to the game, you might make a little more than those that have to fly. A number of hotels at game sites require a minimum 2-night stay, which the officials hate. If they are lucky to be able to drive in on a Friday, have a 11:00 or 12:00 kick, they might be able to leave after the game and not have to spend the money for another night in a hotel. Of if they had to fly in, they might be able to catch a flight out after the game. The conference office chooses the hotels, and negotiates the prices of the rooms. But, some places, demand the 2-night stay, their reasoning is that they could rent that room to fans and make more money.

Hope this is the information you wanted! Keep the questions coming. If I have insight, I'm willing to share. If I just don't know, I have a lot of friends working P5 games and can, normally, get an answer. What they won't share is info about a judgement call that was made. Since I'm not active any longer, I don't mind sharing my thoughts. I've seen a number of calls so far in the bowl season I didn't agree with, but overall, the crews working the games have done a good job.
 

Wexahu

Full Member
I appreciate the difficult jobs officials have and feel like they do try to call the game correctly the overwhelming majority of the time but the Mavs v Heat you cite is something that that is just an all-time low in the profession. I don't think the officials were on the take but they do have bosses (the league) and no one will ever convince me that Cuban's ongoing dispute with the Commissioner about officiating did not result in the word going out to the officials to screw the Mavericks. Same for the Cowboys. Jerry went to war with Goodell over the Ezekiel Elliot investigation and was so pissed that he tried to quash his contract extension and the Cowboys have played the other team and the officials in every crucial game since. I don't think it's a coincidence and neither do their players who have resorted to publicly complaining about the officiating disparity in their games.
Let me guess…..you’re a Mavs and Cowboys fan?
 

Wexahu

Full Member
Zebra, you’re a personal fave poster, but respectfully, I disagree utterly.

Let’s pretend someone wrote the same thing about lawyers. “Just try taking the bar exam and when you fail then go to school for years and dedicate yourself to learning the law and then if you pass then put yourself in the courtroom and ….blah blah”

Lawyers make tons of sacrifices and work very hard to get where they are and law is extremely competitive and difficult. BUT

There are some bad lawyers out there. Really terrible ones who are rotten at their jobs. There are dishonest lawyers and lawyers on the take and lawyers who are incompetent and lawyers who make critical mistakes. Lawyers who aren’t smart enough to get the job done well and lawyers who don’t belong in the profession. They are yelled at and criticized and sued and many times they deserve it.

Same for refs. I’m convinced that there are refs who don’t belong out there at all and refs who are on the take (Mavs v Heat series sealed that deal for me to a certainty). It’s a good ol boy network in many ways (see sons with “famous” ref dads accelerating to the NFL).

In short, if refs take heat for doing a terrible / incompetent / dishonest job, they are criticized and yelled at and many times they deserve it. They don’t get sued so it’s not close to as risky as it is for the lawyers. Refs deserve what they get most of the time IMO. The “getting yelled at” part is a part of the job and I am unmoved by the FB poster’s high-handed post.

How I wish the refs out there were of your quality!
Lawyers don’t decide any outcome, they just make arguments for their clients. If they make bad arguments they aren’t going to last long as a lawyer. Judges are who decide things. I guess they are lawyers too, but I don’t see them getting filthy rich like some lawyers.

I don’t agree with much of anything you say here, thinking officials are commonly on the take is ridiculous imo.
 

Brevity Frog

Active Member
Lawyers don’t decide any outcome, they just make arguments for their clients. If they make bad arguments they aren’t going to last long as a lawyer. Judges are who decide things. I guess they are lawyers too, but I don’t see them getting filthy rich like some lawyers.

I don’t agree with much of anything you say here, thinking officials are commonly on the take is ridiculous imo.
I don’t know how common it is and didn’t make that claim. There are definitely refs on the take but what percentage I couldn’t say.

Perhaps you’d disagree with me less if you read my words more closely. ;);)
 
Let me guess…..you’re a Mavs and Cowboys fan?
I really can’t claim to be a Mavs fan considering how very little I watch NBA games. But it really doesn’t matter. As Mr Galloway used to say, watch the damn games. Both examples I cited are pretty well discussed out on the interwebs so not just some personal theory of mine.
 
I've been watching a lot of games in the past few days. Something that kinda jumps out at me is that when I first started officiating, I was told numerous mentors to never touch a player at any time. I notice a number of officials will pat a player on the butt, or extend a hand and help pull them up off the ground after being tackled. Some of you will think that this is a nice gesture for the official to do, but to me, touching a player, even if it's a "sportsmanlike gesture" can lead to trouble and it's a perception thing. One coach will notice you helped a player from the other team up and in his mind wonder why you never helped one of his players up. It's a small thing, I know, but coaches are always looking for something. They are going to think the official doing that is showing favoritism to the other team. I learned that I never wanted to "never trouble trouble!" You never know when doing something small like that will bite you in the butt! Keep your hands to yourself and nobody can ever accuse you of anything improper. Perception is everything.
 

Brevity Frog

Active Member
I've been watching a lot of games in the past few days. Something that kinda jumps out at me is that when I first started officiating, I was told numerous mentors to never touch a player at any time. I notice a number of officials will pat a player on the butt, or extend a hand and help pull them up off the ground after being tackled. Some of you will think that this is a nice gesture for the official to do, but to me, touching a player, even if it's a "sportsmanlike gesture" can lead to trouble and it's a perception thing. One coach will notice you helped a player from the other team up and in his mind wonder why you never helped one of his players up. It's a small thing, I know, but coaches are always looking for something. They are going to think the official doing that is showing favoritism to the other team. I learned that I never wanted to "never trouble trouble!" You never know when doing something small like that will bite you in the butt! Keep your hands to yourself and nobody can ever accuse you of anything improper. Perception is everything.
I honestly think you should be a guest speaker at ref clinics. You have a lot to offer. This is not just a compliment. Perhaps you are just what these guys need
 
Kind of you to say, but the younger generation won't pay me any attention. They already know everything.
The main reason I have started back posting on here and writing things like I have been doing is that a long-time poster and friend asked me to come back. I just hope those that read it can learn something about a fraternity I was very proud to be a member of. Now I'm just an old fart sitting in my recliner with a heating pad.
 

tcudoc

Full Member
Kind of you to say, but the younger generation won't pay me any attention. They already know everything.
The main reason I have started back posting on here and writing things like I have been doing is that a long-time poster and friend asked me to come back. I just hope those that read it can learn something about a fraternity I was very proud to be a member of. Now I'm just an old fart sitting in my recliner with a heating pad.
I have been a long time fan of yours and I am very glad to see you posting here more frequently. I believe you to be one of the more respected posters here and I believe that I speak for the majority of the community when I say welcome back to the regular rotation.
 

froginaustin

Active Member
Lawyers don’t decide any outcome, they just make arguments for their clients. If they make bad arguments they aren’t going to last long as a lawyer. Judges are who decide things. I guess they are lawyers too, but I don’t see them getting filthy rich like some lawyers.

I don’t agree with much of anything you say here, thinking officials are commonly on the take is ridiculous imo.

Clarence Thomas and Sam Alito?
 
Overall opinion of the officiating in all of the bowl games comes up with a grade of B-. There were some well-worked games, not many, but some that were less than sparkling. It was pretty easy to see the differences in the way some conferences worked the games. As usual, the B12 didn't call holding (or much of anything else, for that matter). In the Rose Bowl they were allowing late hits out-of-bounds that other conferences would call in a second. I guess they were told to "let 'em play" which they did. I honestly can't say which conference I thought did the best job. None of them stood out to me. Just one man's opinion.

In case you were wondering, the ACC is working the Championship Game.
 

Paint It Purple

Active Member
@Zebra Frog How in heck are we to believe that a booster willing to pay an eighteen year old 10s of thousands of dollars, wouldn't see fit to pay off a referee? And, how are we to believe a ref wouldn't take the bribe time and time again?
 

PurplFrawg

Administrator
@Zebra Frog How in heck are we to believe that a booster willing to pay an eighteen year old 10s of thousands of dollars, wouldn't see fit to pay off a referee? And, how are we to believe a ref wouldn't take the bribe time and time again?
You are free to believe whatever you want. We are free to believe that the level of corruption and illegal behavior you describe is not happening.
 

froginmn

Full Member
@Zebra Frog How in heck are we to believe that a booster willing to pay an eighteen year old 10s of thousands of dollars, wouldn't see fit to pay off a referee? And, how are we to believe a ref wouldn't take the bribe time and time again?
Seems pretty clear that the difference between legally paying an 18 year old and risking prison for bribing an official are quite different, and most reasonable people wouldn't risk the latter.
 

Paint It Purple

Active Member
Seems pretty clear that the difference between legally paying an 18 year old and risking prison for bribing an official are quite different, and most reasonable people wouldn't risk the latter.
I see your point, but you actually solidified the one I was making.

Ps: legally paying 18 yr olds is kinda a new thing, yet we all know it's been going on forever.
 
@Zebra Frog How in heck are we to believe that a booster willing to pay an eighteen year old 10s of thousands of dollars, wouldn't see fit to pay off a referee? And, how are we to believe a ref wouldn't take the bribe time and time again?
As others have said, it's not hard for anybody to believe that a booster could pay off an official, and each of us has to choose to believe it's being done, or that officials are beyond reproach. It's kind of like believing that elected officials of both parties, aren't being paid to represent certain political groups. I'm on the side that I'm not aware of any elected official, from a school board member to the POTUS that isn't being paid on the side to vote one way or the other. But, I also believe that if an official of a sport is accepting bribes, it is a very isolated case.

We are allowed to believe what we want and choose to believe. I'm not naive enough to think that there aren't any officials accepting bribes, and it wouldn't surprise me that there aren't players doing the same thing. However, I've never been exposed to or met one personally. But, politicians are all a little dirty, aren't they?

At any rate, my thoughts on the game yesterday are that the Frogs played a Hell of a game, maybe the best game they have ever played, and got screwed by a call/non-call at the end of the game. The Big 12 office should issue a statement saying the calls were missed, but that's probably never going to happen. That would be similar to former President Trump making a statement that he lost the 2020 election legally, or President Biden saying he never made any money from Ukraine.
 
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