• The KillerFrogs

Rush Vs Pass Offense & Defense

Froggish

Active Member
I don't know if anyone here has much interest in analytics but the hot data points in modern football analytics are built around the idea that you can get an idea of what play calls and results are most important to a winning teams offense or defense. The over simplified definition is that statistically, Winning teams excel at "X" on offense and Winning teams excel at "X" on defense..Or another way of saying it is Teams that do "X" have a higher probability of winning.

Much of the analytical narrative is built around a data point termed EPA or Expected Points Per Attempt... This is a way of placing a value on a play call based on a specific TYPE of play call (Run vs pass) and WHEN its called (Field position, down, distance, point in the game..etc).

I'm not analytics guy I just find it particularly interesting so I'll just leave it at this...Most all the data out right now supports that a team wins because they throw the ball well and they stop the pass well. In fact the data is overwhelming that a teams ability to run the ball efficiently is barely relevant to their winning success. How you throw it and how you stop the pass means much more to a teams win/loss record. What makes it even more powerful is that the data actually shows you need to throw it more than run it on 1st and 2nd down as when you complete those passes consistently you should score ore points. Now balance is still important but only because it keeps teams honest and opens passing windows. Your yardage success running the ball isn't real relevant.

So why do I bring this up? Well what have we all been witching about around here...?
1. Offensively We can't throw the ball effectively..(True FR QB + Dropsies + Play calling)
2. Defensively We can't rush the passer worth a damn.. (DE Problem, Deep Balls)
3. We are a good running team (Running isn't near as important to winning in modern football)
4. the 4-2-5 is built to get numbers in the front to stop the run where as young DC's have gone 3-3-5 to get numbers in the back to stop the pass..

- In our two losses SMU Completed 70% of their passes for 8.5 YPA and ISU completed 80% for 10.3 YPA
- In our P5 Wins Purdue only completed 45% of their passes 6.2 YPA and KU completed 40% for 2.9 YPA

If you have a bit of time digest this article...https://thepowerrank.com/2018/09/24/the-surprising-truth-about-passing-and-rushing-in-the-nfl/ Yes its NFL based but CFB follows the same results its just not quite as pass heavy favorable. Mainly because the talent gaps in the CFB can be so skewed.

All this to say that this data supports that throwing the ball early in games, on early downs and throwing high % routes will lead to far more points then the RTDB philosophy GP is forcing down Cumbie's throat. None of that is new to anyone that has watched this football team but its interesting that data supports it none the less.

Finally...In some ways this team just isn't built to win a ton of games unless the light comes on in the passing game and the pass rush....YAH..We already knew that...
 

BrewingFrog

Was I supposed to type something here?
A metric that cannot be measured is execution. Or, in our case, the lack thereof.

It doesn't really matter which play is sent in. If the team cannot execute any play worth a damn, then whatever is called is likely to be a steaming failure guaranteed to elicit groans from the Frog faithful...
 

Froggish

Active Member
A metric that cannot be measured is execution. Or, in our case, the lack thereof.

It doesn't really matter which play is sent in. If the team cannot execute any play worth a damn, then whatever is called is likely to be a steaming failure guaranteed to elicit groans from the Frog faithful...

No doubt about it.....But winning teams execute the pass better than losing teams..They don't necessarily execute the run better...Thats the point of the data.

To your comment, if you can't do either then you just suck and everyone is going to groan.
 

Froggish

Active Member
We’re T-22 in the nation in points per game and T-57 in the nation in points against per game, whatever that’s worth. I’m less worried about the offense than the defense at the moment.

We should be ....Def we rank 75th in the country in YPA...We don’t defend the pass very well and out total defense ranking is being driven by being pretty good at something that has less value to winning and losing
 

jake102

Active Member
I've got us at #31 in the nation in defensive passing yards/attempt and #102 in offensive passing yards/attempt. So not too bad defensively and awful offensively. Not terribly surprising.
 

Frog-in-law1995

Active Member
I've got us at #31 in the nation in defensive passing yards/attempt and #102 in offensive passing yards/attempt. So not too bad defensively and awful offensively. Not terribly surprising.

Are you looking at total yards/play? Passing stats I saw have us at 48th in offensive passing yards/attempt and 88th in defensive yards/attempt (both right at 6.8-6.9 ypa).

Edit: but then the ESPN site has similar numbers in the mid 6 ypa range, but shows they rank where you suggested. Weird.
 

jake102

Active Member
Are you looking at total yards/play? Passing stats I saw have us at 48th in offensive passing yards/attempt and 88th in defensive yards/attempt (both right at 6.8-6.9 ypa).

Edit: but then the ESPN site has similar numbers in the mid 6 ypa range, but shows they rank where you suggested. Weird.

CFBstats - Offensively gaining 6.6 yards/pass good for #102
Defensively giving 6.3 yards/pass good for #31
 

helcap

Full Member
A more qualitative analysis I have heard is simply to beat good teams you need to have some explosive big plays on Offense, and those are more likely to come through the air than on the ground.
 

Casey T

Full Member
I haven't read the article and am not debating, but an Air Raid CFB team has never won a championship. And I would assume this type of analytics would heavily support the air raid
 

notyalc

Active Member
I'm guessing a balanced mix of pass and run adjusting one over the other given the game situation is the way to go. Definitely would like to see pass on first and second. Waiting to throw until third down with a freshman QB seems like a drive killer to me.
 

jake102

Active Member
I haven't read the article and am not debating, but an Air Raid CFB team has never won a championship. And I would assume this type of analytics would heavily support the air raid

Alabama and Clemson weren't air raid, but their passing attacks in 2018 were the driver. Especially the case for Alabama this year.
 

Froggish

Active Member
Are you looking at total yards/play? Passing stats I saw have us at 48th in offensive passing yards/attempt and 88th in defensive yards/attempt (both right at 6.8-6.9 ypa).

Edit: but then the ESPN site has similar numbers in the mid 6 ypa range, but shows they rank where you suggested. Weird.

Also consider our 3 wins APB(FCS), Purdue (Total OFF Rank #101), Kansas, (Total Off Rank #102)....We've just feasted on incredibly bad offensive football teams.

TOT Offensive Rank for SMU - #12 / ISU - #15 ....

The reality is when we face teams with good QB/WR talent level we suck..In the two losses
YPA - 9.2
YPC - 12.73 (A first down time every time they completed a ball!)
YPG - 267.5 (on only avg. of 21 Completions a game)
Comp% - 72% ( So 7 out of 10 balls are being completed and they on average are going for a 1st down with every catch! horrible)

We can't understate just how big a role GPs defenses have played in the losses. The stats above are completely unacceptable for a winning football team. I'm not a fan of Cumbie but I can tell you no amount of explosive offense will curb just how bad GPs defense has performed against good offenses. In 5 games, we've seen only two good offenses and they've both scored at will.....Still have OU, OSU, and UT on the schedule.
 

Froggish

Active Member
CFBstats - Offensively gaining 6.6 yards/pass good for #102
Defensively giving 6.3 yards/pass good for #31

Your correct on the stat adjustment defensive ranking however 6.3 is Yards per Attempt and if adjust for yards per completion with balloon up to around 50th..APB, KU, and Purdue on some of the worst offenses in all of college football.
 
M

mkel43

Guest
I don't know if anyone here has much interest in analytics but the hot data points in modern football analytics are built around the idea that you can get an idea of what play calls and results are most important to a winning teams offense or defense. The over simplified definition is that statistically, Winning teams excel at "X" on offense and Winning teams excel at "X" on defense..Or another way of saying it is Teams that do "X" have a higher probability of winning.

Much of the analytical narrative is built around a data point termed EPA or Expected Points Per Attempt... This is a way of placing a value on a play call based on a specific TYPE of play call (Run vs pass) and WHEN its called (Field position, down, distance, point in the game..etc).

I'm not analytics guy I just find it particularly interesting so I'll just leave it at this...Most all the data out right now supports that a team wins because they throw the ball well and they stop the pass well. In fact the data is overwhelming that a teams ability to run the ball efficiently is barely relevant to their winning success. How you throw it and how you stop the pass means much more to a teams win/loss record. What makes it even more powerful is that the data actually shows you need to throw it more than run it on 1st and 2nd down as when you complete those passes consistently you should score ore points. Now balance is still important but only because it keeps teams honest and opens passing windows. Your yardage success running the ball isn't real relevant.

So why do I bring this up? Well what have we all been witching about around here...?
1. Offensively We can't throw the ball effectively..(True FR QB + Dropsies + Play calling)
2. Defensively We can't rush the passer worth a damn.. (DE Problem, Deep Balls)
3. We are a good running team (Running isn't near as important to winning in modern football)
4. the 4-2-5 is built to get numbers in the front to stop the run where as young DC's have gone 3-3-5 to get numbers in the back to stop the pass..

- In our two losses SMU Completed 70% of their passes for 8.5 YPA and ISU completed 80% for 10.3 YPA
- In our P5 Wins Purdue only completed 45% of their passes 6.2 YPA and KU completed 40% for 2.9 YPA

If you have a bit of time digest this article...https://thepowerrank.com/2018/09/24/the-surprising-truth-about-passing-and-rushing-in-the-nfl/ Yes its NFL based but CFB follows the same results its just not quite as pass heavy favorable. Mainly because the talent gaps in the CFB can be so skewed.

All this to say that this data supports that throwing the ball early in games, on early downs and throwing high % routes will lead to far more points then the RTDB philosophy GP is forcing down Cumbie's throat. None of that is new to anyone that has watched this football team but its interesting that data supports it none the less.

Finally...In some ways this team just isn't built to win a ton of games unless the light comes on in the passing game and the pass rush....YAH..We already knew that...


Hahahaha where the hell did you get your information for #4?
 

Froggish

Active Member
Hahahaha where the hell did you get your information for #4?
Enlighten us.....Both of those defenses are trying to get numbers either in the box or in the backend baiting the offense to play to your strength. That’s the beauty of putting another safety on the field....Where am I wrong?

EDIT: May be a better way of describing the 4-2-5 is that they is an emphasis on controlling the line of scrimmage so you have flexibility with the extra DB. It’s a play to get the match up you want
 
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4th. down

Active Member
A metric that cannot be measured is execution. Or, in our case, the lack thereof.

It doesn't really matter which play is sent in. If the team cannot execute any play worth a damn, then whatever is called is likely to be a steaming failure guaranteed to elicit groans from the Frog faithful...

It's depressing, but I believe this is where we are. We can all say this and that, but really it's execution. Why we didn't execute is the real puzzling question in my mind - why?
 

4th. down

Active Member
Also consider our 3 wins APB(FCS), Purdue (Total OFF Rank #101), Kansas, (Total Off Rank #102)....We've just feasted on incredibly bad offensive football teams.

TOT Offensive Rank for SMU - #12 / ISU - #15 ....

The reality is when we face teams with good QB/WR talent level we suck..In the two losses
YPA - 9.2
YPC - 12.73 (A first down time every time they completed a ball!)
YPG - 267.5 (on only avg. of 21 Completions a game)
Comp% - 72% ( So 7 out of 10 balls are being completed and they on average are going for a 1st down with every catch! horrible)

We can't understate just how big a role GPs defenses have played in the losses. The stats above are completely unacceptable for a winning football team. I'm not a fan of Cumbie but I can tell you no amount of explosive offense will curb just how bad GPs defense has performed against good offenses. In 5 games, we've seen only two good offenses and they've both scored at will.....Still have OU, OSU, and UT on the schedule.

And.....that's why you are hearing so much blah, blah, blah from GP now, trying to cover for his defense - as of yet, he won't own up to it. His defense, for whatever reason, is not playing for him. Too many potential defensive all conf. players on this unit to give these type of performances. If we shut out KSt, we might be back on track, if we lose that game, turn out the lights.
 
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