TCU 360: TCU’s mask mandate to remain in place

[Wexahu]

I’m not saying there should be mandates, because I don’t think the mandates make a huge difference in whether people wear masks or not, but I do think everyone should wear a mask when in public because masks definitely help reduce the spread. If you were having a face-to-face conversation with someone you knew had a terrible virus that could be transmitted the same way COVID is transmitted, you’re lying through your teeth if you say you wouldn’t wear a mask and you wouldn’t care if the other person wore one.

Every hospital in the world makes people wear masks as they enter. I don’t think they’re doing that because masks don’t work.

And if you actually read the article I posted from the CDC, they have done studies that show masks reduce the spread (by up to 80% in some instances).

Hospitals is where sick people are. Like I have said before, totally reasonable to require mask wearing in hospitals. I don't think I have had a face-to-face conversation with someone who I knew had the virus. I've had several face to face conversations with people who "might" have had the virus (how are we supposed to know?) and they didn't bother me then and they don't bother me now so I'm not sure what you are saying.

I'm finding out there are a lot of people who say they don't think there should be government mandates who seem to have a problem when they are lifted.

 

[HFrog1999]

I’m not saying there should be mandates, because I don’t think the mandates make a huge difference in whether people wear masks or not, but I do think everyone should wear a mask when in public because masks definitely help reduce the spread. If you were having a face-to-face conversation with someone you knew had a terrible virus that could be transmitted the same way COVID is transmitted, you’re lying through your teeth if you say you wouldn’t wear a mask and you wouldn’t care if the other person wore one.

Every hospital in the world makes people wear masks as they enter. I don’t think they’re doing that because masks don’t work.

And if you actually read the article I posted from the CDC, they have done studies that show masks reduce the spread (by up to 80% in some instances).

I’m a fan of Social Distancing. I think a good compromise is for people who wear masks to stay 6 feet or more away from those who don’t.

 

[Bob Sugar]

Then there's the rest of us--the sane, rational people who don't need the government to restrict our movements and order us to cover our faces in public (Sharia law, much?). Instead, we voluntarily wash our hands and wear a mask because we personally believe and/or feel that it is the logical and/or considerate thing to do. We balance emotions with intelligence, and have a general distrust of government overreach and the proverbial slippery slope.

If this whole ordeal is about saving lives, then we should make the speed limit 25 on the highways, and 5 on all other roads. We should require masks during flu season. We should ban all trans-fat, and limit caloric intake for everyone. The list goes on and on, but you get the point. Anyone with intellectual honesty must recognize that the government intervention into COVID-19 mandates has been arbitrary and capricious. And that is what rubs people like us the wrong way.

 

[jake102]

masks definitely help reduce the spread. .

It's just not bearing out in real life, or there's at least big inconsistencies in results (ie the California vs Florida comparison). I've been a mask wearer since the beginning, even when Fauci flip flopped, and will continue to do so until I've been vaccinated, but I think it's generally nonsense and just trying to make people/government feel like they have control

 

[Frog79]

and?

why is the difference so small when one state has almost no mandates of when and where to wear a mask and has not been restricting business openings or capacity limits

while the other is almost on full lockdown with forcing businesses to remain closed for almost a year, restricting peoples movement to only necessary travel, limiting capacity in every business allowed to be open and requiring wearing a mask at all times you are outside your home

Because understanding the difference and why one state has crashed their economy while the other has only felt a slight blip to their citizens is key to getting past events like this - particularly now that the messages coming out of NY are the vaccines don't work against mutations of the virus - so we are headed back to square one.

That is the question that the CDC has not even bothered to investigate - most likely because they won't like the answer

When you adjust for age Florida's death rate is about 20% lower than Cali's which has a much younger population. So it would appear that all those lockdowns and mask mandates were for nothing.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Hospitals is where sick people are. Like I have said before, totally reasonable to require mask wearing in hospitals. I don't think I have had a face-to-face conversation with someone who I knew had the virus. I've had several face to face conversations with people who "might" have had the virus (how are we supposed to know?) and they didn't bother me then and they don't bother me now so I'm not sure what you are saying.

I'm finding out there are a lot of people who say they don't think there should be government mandates who seem to have a problem when they are lifted.

What I am saying is that in a hypothetical situation where you are forced to have a 10 minute conversation with a sick person who’s a couple feet away from you, and if you contract what they have you automatically die, and you get to choose whether or not you and the sick person are wearing masks, everyone in their right mind would choose that both people wear a mask.

All of this talk about masks not helping prevent the spread is just political talking point BS. Mask mandates may not work, I’m not arguing about that, but masks obviously help. They prevent them from breathing/speaking their droplets into the air, and those droplets in the air are how you would contract it. It’s ridiculous to think a mask wouldn’t help.

 

[BrewingFrog]

What I am saying is that in a hypothetical situation where you are forced to have a 10 minute conversation with a sick person who’s a couple feet away from you, and if you contract what they have you automatically die, and you get to choose whether or not you and the sick person are wearing masks, everyone in their right mind would choose that both people wear a mask.

Ah, apples, oranges. A disease with 100% lethality? I believe the procedure would be Level 4 Biosafety protocols, which far exceed a simple mask. Besides, if you really needed to talk to somebody that's gonna die of 100% Lethality Disease, use the phone...

All of this talk about masks not helping prevent the spread is just political talking point BS. Mask mandates may not work, I’m not arguing about that, but masks obviously help. They prevent them from breathing/speaking their droplets into the air, and those droplets in the air are how you would contract it. It’s ridiculous to think a mask wouldn’t help.

Again, you limit your perspective to the simple "this cloth will block X droplets" conclusion, without stopping to consider the host of variables outlines before: How often is the person's mask washed? Does the person fiddle with their mask with dirty hands? Etcetera. It is these considerations, in addition to the lack of fitting, lack of uniformity, lack of filtration of 30nm particulates which defeat the mask.

The best strategy is to wash your hands. Frequently. The most likely point of infection is touching your eyes or nose with dirty hands.

 

[Wexahu]

What I am saying is that in a hypothetical situation where you are forced to have a 10 minute conversation with a sick person who’s a couple feet away from you, and if you contract what they have you automatically die, and you get to choose whether or not you and the sick person are wearing masks, everyone in their right mind would choose that both people wear a mask.

All of this talk about masks not helping prevent the spread is just political talking point BS. Mask mandates may not work, I’m not arguing about that, but masks obviously help. They prevent them from breathing/speaking their droplets into the air, and those droplets in the air are how you would contract it. It’s ridiculous to think a mask wouldn’t help.

I agree on your first paragraph, although that scenario you describe is ridiculous.

I have said repeatedly that masks can help when a person is actively coughing, sneezing, showing obvious symptoms. That's not what we are talking about though, or at least what I am talking about. For an analogy, I think people driving slower around schools probably makes some sense, call it 20 mph, fine, I'll call that reasonable. Requiring customers of restaurants to wear masks would be like requiring people to drive 20 mph on west Texas interstates. Requiring customers of Target and Walmart to wear masks is like requiring people to drive 20 mph on inner city freeways. It's dumb. That's what universal mask mandates do, and I know you say you aren't for mask mandates, but the lifting of them was literally what all the uproar over Gov Abbott has been about. It's been all over the news, have you not been paying attention? So that is what we are talking about.

 

[Big Frog II]

I social distance from Aggies virus or not.

 

[HFrog1999]

It's just not bearing out in real life, or there's at least big inconsistencies in results (ie the California vs Florida comparison). I've been a mask wearer since the beginning, even when Fauci flip flopped, and will continue to do so until I've been vaccinated, but I think it's generally nonsense and just trying to make people/government feel like they have control

I was considered an "essential worker". So I was out visiting stores even when we were supposed to be "locked down". I didn't wear a mask initially because Fauci and the Surgeon General were telling everyone not to and my customer wasn't having their employees wear masks. In fact, my customer took masks off of their shelves to donate to hospitals. I spent 3 months not wearing masks in stores around hundreds of people. The only stores that required masks before Abbott's order were the stores in Dallas. Almost everyone wore masks in those stores. Ironically, Dallas had the worst virus numbers in the area during that period of time.

Despite not wearing a mask while visiting 6 stores per day for 3 months, neither I nor my family got sick. Maybe we were just lucky. However, I'm vigilant about maintaining my "social distance" and washing my hands/using hand sanitizer.

I've always worn a mask since the mandate was in place, mostly so I wouldn't lose my job. I lost my job to a layoff anyways. However, I wore my mask every single day, and I hated it.

 

[Ron Swanson]

I agree on your first paragraph, although that scenario you describe is ridiculous.

I have said repeatedly that masks can help when a person is actively coughing, sneezing, showing obvious symptoms. That's not what we are talking about though, or at least what I am talking about. For an analogy, I think people driving slower around schools probably makes some sense, call it 20 mph, fine, I'll call that reasonable. Requiring customers of restaurants to wear masks would be like requiring people to drive 20 mph on west Texas interstates. Requiring customers of Target and Walmart to wear masks is like requiring people to drive 20 mph on inner city freeways. It's dumb. That's what universal mask mandates do, and I know you say you aren't for mask mandates, but the lifting of them was literally what all the uproar over Gov Abbott has been about. It's been all over the news, have you not been paying attention? So that is what we are talking about.

Whether or not the scenario is ridiculous is besides the point. I could say that if you get the virus, your penis falls off. Doesn’t matter, like I said, it’s a hypothetical. Would you want the man you were forced to have a conversation with, even if he had no symptoms, to wear a mask?

Of course you would, because it would decrease the chances of you contracting what he has. And if you believe the actual scientific data published on the matter (which I have linked in this thread but no one seems to want to discuss because it contradicts their viewpoint), it would decrease the chances quite considerably.

 

[Ron Swanson]

I was considered an "essential worker". So I was out visiting stores even when we were supposed to be "locked down". I didn't wear a mask initially because Fauci and the Surgeon General were telling everyone not to and my customer wasn't having their employees wear masks. In fact, my customer took masks off of their shelves to donate to hospitals. I spent 3 months not wearing masks in stores around hundreds of people. The only stores that required masks before Abbott's order were the stores in Dallas. Almost everyone wore masks in those stores. Ironically, Dallas had the worst virus numbers in the area during that period of time.

Despite not wearing a mask while visiting 6 stores per day for 3 months, neither I nor my family got sick. Maybe we were just lucky. However, I'm vigilant about maintaining my "social distance" and washing my hands/using hand sanitizer.

I've always worn a mask since the mandate was in place, mostly so I wouldn't lose my job. I lost my job to a layoff anyways. However, I wore my mask every single day, and I hated it.

Wearing a mask isn’t supposed to have a large impact on whether or not the mask wearer gets the virus, it is supposed to have a large impact on whether the person wearing the mask gives the virus to other people.

 

[Bob Sugar]

Wearing a mask isn’t supposed to have a large impact on whether or not the mask wearer gets the virus, it is supposed to have a large impact on whether the person wearing the mask gives the virus to other people.

A virus so bad that you need to wear a mask, in case you have the virus but don't even know it.

 

[HFrog1999]

Wearing a mask isn’t supposed to have a large impact on whether or not the mask wearer gets the virus, it is supposed to have a large impact on whether the person wearing the mask gives the virus to other people.

Dude, I’m not arguing about anything, I’m just relating my personal experience. I don’t think masks help, but I’m not going to argue with someone who wants to wear a mask or avoid people who don’t wear masks.

 

[Endless Purple]

On the California vs Florida thing, we have to assume that there are other variables at play other than just the mask mandate.

Older people tend to take the virus more seriously and isolate/wear masks much more so than younger people, and Florida is a much older state. Maybe Florida has actually benefitted from the age of its citizens, despite there not being a mandate.

I mean then what's the point?

Also - I've been to Florida since COVID and have family there, it's like Texas but even a little further open. On the other hand I have friends and family in California and they can't do anything unless it's in private.

I do agree with your original statement that masks certainly can't hurt. IMO the benefit is likely negligible, but I can't see a way they hurt.

I think you (Jake102) are pointing out one aspect that some here are missing. There are points in time that are not being measured such as private events. These need to be included in studies, not just say is there a mandate or do you wear a mask in public.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Dude, I’m not arguing about anything, I’m just relating my personal experience. I don’t think masks help, but I’m not going to argue with someone who wants to wear a mask or avoid people who don’t wear masks.

Well you stated that you didn’t get it and you weren’t wearing a mask. And I see people all the time say they contracted Covid and they wore a mask everywhere, so masks must not do anything.

My point was whether or not you were wearing a mask is kind of besides the point.

 

[YA]

If we would be a lot worse off if no one wore masks, how come Florida, South Dakota and other places aren't worse off than the locked down/heavily masked places?

I did my part and wore one as I was supposed to, as did the vast majority of people I've run across as I've traveled around DFW the past year, and I'm not convinced that masks did a damn thing at this point. Seems like the virus trended very similarly all around the world, regardless of measures taken.

South Dakota by population % has one of the worst covid rates in the world

 

[HFrog1999]

Well you stated that you didn’t get it and you weren’t wearing a mask. And I see people all the time say they contracted Covid and they wore a mask everywhere, so masks must not do anything.

My point was whether or not you were wearing a mask is kind of besides the point.

I also said I didn’t spread it to my family. I also said I was around hundreds of people per day who weren’t wearing masks. I also didn’t spread it to any of my friends who we socialized with or the customers I met with.

 

[YA]

To keep this thread on topic. TCU can do what it wants with the mask mandate. I won’t be going to any games or coming onto campus if I have to wear one and I wouldn’t send my sons to a school with a mandate in place at this point in the pandemic. Others will make different decisions and that’s perfectly fine.

I had hoped masks would help, but after observing the numbers and different approaches in different areas, I don’t think they did. I think the mandate was just another example of security theater which is an all to common practice in government.

see you later then--but as I recall you don't have season tickets anyway

 

[Endless Purple]

Well, they dehumanize people to a degree. Impossible to quantify what that does to people though. While I'm not going to say that part of it is some huge deal, I can't help but think there is some negative effect, maybe more than we think.

Dehumanize people? That's the first I heard of this argument point. Not like being relegated a social security number, driver's license number, or federal id number is so personal. Maybe being considered a statistic is comforting saying only a 2% impact. I would think that 2% of 500,000 would find being one of the additional 10,000 dead would find the 2% stat dehumanizing. (hmmm, actually it is since well they are dead) I used 2% because someone posted earlier that mask only help by1.5-2% and that it insignificant. That 2% would be about like wiping out the TCU student body or not.

Dang, I think I am starting to sound like Wexahu in a 2014 football discussion.

I guess if masks are dehumanizing for covering the mouth and nose, imagine how much better it would be if we removed the shirts as well. At least on all skinny people since as noted below, weight may be a factor in getting it.

So what you are saying is if results and data don't really show what you expect them to show, you just have to assume there are other factors in play. Because there is no way masks don't have a real impact. That's kind of what you're saying, right?

OK, what other factors might there be?

To your point though, people on "your side" have compared what we are doing to what Japan and South Korea have done in trying to make the point that their measures have worked so much better than ours. IMO, there is one HUGE factor that differentiates us and those countries, and that is obesity. According to this list, the US has the 12th highest obesity rate in the world. We are literally the fattest country in the world of any size. South Korea and Japan have among the lowest obesity rates in the world. You don't think that is the biggest factor is their COVID "success"? How many deaths would the US have if we had 15% of the fat people that we currently have like Japan and South Korea do? Given the profile of who is dying from COVID, I'd say we'd have far, far fewer deaths had we done nothing differently. I'd say we'd have far fewer deaths had we done nothing at all. Isn't that reasonable to assume.

I don't think there is that much that differentiates Florida and California. They are probably the two most similar large states in our country.

You kind of answer your own point in that other factors must be consider and not one factor can be used on its own. Thus mask play a part, but looking at them and evaluating them by themselves is not the proper way to analyze the situation. Now we need to see how the impact of weight changes the numbers based on mask. I would expect is has a bigger impact on severity more so than transmission, but I have not read a study that says thin people can't spread the virus as much. Please link one if you find one.

As to Florida / California numbers posted earlier. There is like an 8% difference in those numbers posted (140 something and 130 something). Most would consider that significant in science studies.