TCU No. 3 in Academic BCS

[TopFrog]

http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/121211aah.html

Penn State Football Ranked No. 1 in Academic BCS

UNIVERSITY PARK, Pa., - The Penn State football team has earned the top spot in the fifth annual Academic Bowl Championship Series rankings, as determined by New America Foundation's Higher Ed Watch.

The Higher Ed Watch blog (2011 Academic Bowl Championship Series) ranked the teams in the final 2011 BCS standings and determined Penn State has the No. 1 academic program with 117 points, followed by Boise State (107), TCU (101) and Stanford (100).

The Academic BCS compares data on team graduation rates and academic progress rates (APR) to the performance of other teams, as well as the general student body. The results are a look at how the schools in the BCS Top 25 would stack up if academics determined a team's BCS ranking. Four NCAA and federal graduation rates and the team's Academic Progress Rate are factored to determine its point total.

Penn State and Stanford are tied for the top Graduation Success Rate (GSR) at 87 percent, among teams ranked in the Dec. 4 Bowl Championship Series and AP Top 25 rankings, according to data released in October by the NCAA. ...

 

[neutral observer]

Nice to hear! :biggrin:

 

[Burner1]

Here's a link to the original release instead of Penn State's spin:

http://higheredwatch.newamerica.net/blogposts/2011/2011_abcsranking-61200

 

[TopFrog]

Here's a link to the original release instead of Penn State's spin:

http://higheredwatch...csranking-61200

Thanks. It was also included in the text provided in the OP ...

 

[IronSkillet]

BSU at number 2? ...

 

[Stiff Arm Frog]

These rankings are a sham. The formula they use compares the percentage of football players who graduate with the overall percentage of students who graduate.

TCU has a high dropout rate because our tuition is so high. While I was a student I knew more people who dropped out or transferred because they couldn't keep up with the tuition hikes than for any other reason.

 

[Deep Purple]

TCU has a high dropout rate because our tuition is so high. While I was a student I knew more people who dropped out or transferred because they couldn't keep up with the tuition hikes than for any other reason.

Generalizations from personal experience or anecdote are rarely ever correct. Class cohort graduation rates, general student population, five-year weighted average:

TCU: 74%
SMU: 73.2%
Baylor: 69.6%

 

[Stiff Arm Frog]

Generalizations from personal experience or anecdote are rarely ever correct. Class cohort graduation rates, general student population, five-year weighted average:

TCU: 74%
SMU: 73.2%
Baylor: 69.6%

SMU and Baylor are also too expensive. I'm sure they have similar problems.

A lot of kids drop out of TCU because it's too expensive. There's no denying that.

 

[McFroggin]

Generalizations from personal experience or anecdote are rarely ever correct. Class cohort graduation rates, general student population, five-year weighted average:

TCU: 74%
SMU: 73.2%
Baylor: 69.6%

You are arguing that TCU doesn't have a higher drop-out rate than much cheaper schools by comparing our stats to SMU.....? Hmmmmm

 

[Boomhauer]

A lot of kids drop out of TCU because it's too expensive. There's no denying that.

If there is a way, Deep Purple will find it.

 

[Deep Purple]

SMU and Baylor are also too expensive. I'm sure they have similar problems.

A lot of kids drop out of TCU because it's too expensive. There's no denying that.

You are arguing that TCU doesn't have a higher drop-out rate than much cheaper schools by comparing our stats to SMU.....? Hmmmmm

And you're both arguing that selective but expensive private universities have high drop-out rates in comparison to more affordable public universities? [sigh] Okay... But you should have done a little homework. Class cohort graduation rates, general student population, five-year weighted average for high-demand public universities:

UT-Austin: 75.3%
Texas A&M: 75.2%
OU: 64.5%
LSU: 59.2%
Mizzou: 64.1%

Most people who work in higher education know that popular public universities, while considerably more affordable, have drop-out rates comparable to or significantly higher than expensive private universities. In other words, cost is not a compelling or significant factor in drop-out rates.

 

[McFroggin]

And you're both arguing that selective but expensive private universities have high drop-out rates in comparison to more affordable public universities? [sigh] Okay... But you should have done a little homework. Class cohort graduation rates, general student population, five-year weighted average for high-demand public universities:

UT-Austin: 75.3%
Texas A&M: 75.2%
OU: 64.5%
LSU: 59.2%
Mizzou: 64.1%

Most people who work in higher education know that popular public universities, while considerably more affordable, have drop-out rates comparable to or significantly higher than expensive private universities. In other words, cost is not a compelling or significant factor in drop-out rates.

I didn't say I disagreed with you. I just didn't understand your argument before.

 

[Deep Purple]

I didn't say I disagreed with you. I just didn't understand your argument before.

It seems I misunderstood your response as well. Mistakenly lumped you in with Stiff Arm's argument.

There are a lot of good reasons to bash the cost of private universities, but drop-out rates is not one of them. Public universities on the whole have higher drop-out rates than most private universities. That alone eliminates cost as a major factor behind drop-outs at private U's.

For any university, public or private, a graduation rate of 70-80% is upper-echelon. Only a relatively handful, all elite institutions, have a graduation rate higher than 80%. These would be schools like Rice, Stanford, the Ivies, and the most highly selective public universities.

I understand Stiff Arm's gripe about the high cost of TCU, but saying that TCU's drop-out rate is high -- and that cost is a major driver of it -- is just flat wrong.

 

[Stiff Arm Frog]

And you're both arguing that selective but expensive private universities have high drop-out rates in comparison to more affordable public universities? [sigh] Okay... But you should have done a little homework. Class cohort graduation rates, general student population, five-year weighted average for high-demand public universities:

UT-Austin: 75.3%
Texas A&M: 75.2%
OU: 64.5%
LSU: 59.2%
Mizzou: 64.1%
Most people who work in higher education know that popular public universities, while considerably more affordable, have drop-out rates comparable to or significantly higher than expensive private universities. In other words, cost is not a compelling or significant factor in drop-out rates.

Cost most certainly is a significant factor in TCU's graduation rate. Your numbers prove that TCU's graduation rate is similar to a public university's, but they say nothing about the underlying causes of those dropouts.

State schools have to adhere to government -mandated admission requirements, meaning they have to take on a lot of kids who may not be cut out for college. TCU doesn't have to do that. Sure, some people don't make it at TCU because of discipline problems. But for the most part, we only take on kids we think can make it for 4 years. Why would we take anyone else? For that reason alone, our graduation rate should be higher.

And public schools also have the part-time crowd to contend with. People who only take a few classes on the side while they work and plan to graduate in more than 5 years -- or who don't graduate, and just take classes for professional experience. Last I checked, a single a la carte class at TCU will run your $3500. I don't see a whole lot of people lining up to take that deal. Most people at TCU are in it for a 4 year education.

If someone drops out at a public school, it may be because of grades or a job -- or, sometimes, because of the cost of tuition. If someone drops out of TCU, most of the time it's just because of the cost of tuition. And there's not anything wrong with that, it's just that public schools and private schools face different obstacles. But I have many friends who will testify that price is the reason they have a degree from somewhere other than TCU.

 

[Deep Purple]

Cost most certainly is a significant factor in TCU's graduation rate. Your numbers prove that TCU's graduation rate is similar to a public university's, but they say nothing about the underlying causes of those dropouts.

State schools have to adhere to government -mandated admission requirements, meaning they have to take on a lot of kids who may not be cut out for college. TCU doesn't have to do that.

The only thing my numbers prove is that you're trying to argue both sides of the coin.

First, you said TCU had high dropout rates because of high cost. So I showed that wasn't true, that our dropout rates are on par with other selective, comparably priced private institutions.

Next, you said other, comparable private universities also have high dropout rates because of high cost. So I showed that wasn't true either, that their dropout rates are on par with, or significantly lower than, public universities that are much less expensive.

Now you say public universities have the same or higher dropout rates because they are less selective in admissions. You provide noting to support that claim, though I've given you the numbers for both public and private universities. Apparently, we're supposed to take your word at face value, just because you say so.

What you're ignoring is that private institutions in general are more academically challenging than most public U's, making them harder to graduate from -- and that offsets your less-selective argument about public U's.

I've given you data to support my statements. You've given us nothing -- just unsupported claims.

But for the most part, we only take on kids we think can make it for 4 years. Why would we take anyone else? For that reason alone, our graduation rate should be higher.

Really? Then tell us what our graduation rate should be, and on what basis do you make that judgement? Not your abstract opinion, mind you, but show us what universities TCU should be rivaling in graduation rates.

Vanderbilt perhaps, which graduates over 80%? But Vanderbilt is substantially more expensive than TCU. According to you, high cost is what causes the "high" dropout rates at private universities. Show us a comprehensive private university that's substantially cheaper than TCU and has substantially better graduation rates.

Here's a hint: You'll come up empty, because they aren't out there. You're offering a totally convoluted and self-contradictory argument.

But I have many friends who will testify that price is the reason they have a degree from somewhere other than TCU.

That's anecdote, not data. Show us the numbers.

 

[Bill Bozeat]

The only thing my numbers prove is that you're trying to argue both sides of the coin.

First, you said TCU had high dropout rates because of high cost. So I showed that wasn't true, that our dropout rates are on par with other selective, comparably priced private institutions.

Next, you said other, comparable private universities also have high dropout rates because of high cost. So I showed that wasn't true either, that their dropout rates are on par with, or significantly lower than, public universities that are much less expensive.

Now you say public universities have the same or higher dropout rates because they are less selective in admissions. You provide noting to support that claim, though I've given you the numbers for both public and private universities. Apparently, we're supposed to take your word at face value, just because you say so.

What you're ignoring is that private institutions in general are more academically challenging than most public U's, making them harder to graduate from -- and that offsets your less-selective argument about public U's.

I've given you data to support my statements. You've given us nothing -- just unsupported claims.


Really? Then tell us what our graduation rate should be, and on what basis do you make that judgement? Not your abstract opinion, mind you, but show us what universities TCU should be rivaling in graduation rates.

Vanderbilt perhaps, which graduates over 80%? But Vanderbilt is substantially more expensive than TCU. According to you, high cost is what causes the "high" dropout rates at private universities. Show us a comprehensive private university that's substantially cheaper than TCU and has substantially better graduation rates.

Here's a hint: You'll come up empty, because they aren't out there. You're offering a totally convoluted and self-contradictory argument.


That's anecdote, not data. Show us the numbers.

Your Honor....the defense rests..........

 

[maximilian]

The only thing my numbers prove is that you're trying to argue both sides of the coin.

First, you said TCU had high dropout rates because of high cost. So I showed that wasn't true, that our dropout rates are on par with other selective, comparably priced private institutions.

Next, you said other, comparable private universities also have high dropout rates because of high cost. So I showed that wasn't true either, that their dropout rates are on par with, or significantly lower than, public universities that are much less expensive.

Now you say public universities have the same or higher dropout rates because they are less selective in admissions. You provide noting to support that claim, though I've given you the numbers for both public and private universities. Apparently, we're supposed to take your word at face value, just because you say so.

What you're ignoring is that private institutions in general are more academically challenging than most public U's, making them harder to graduate from -- and that offsets your less-selective argument about public U's.

I've given you data to support my statements. You've given us nothing -- just unsupported claims.


Really? Then tell us what our graduation rate should be, and on what basis do you make that judgement? Not your abstract opinion, mind you, but show us what universities TCU should be rivaling in graduation rates.

Vanderbilt perhaps, which graduates over 80%? But Vanderbilt is substantially more expensive than TCU. According to you, high cost is what causes the "high" dropout rates at private universities. Show us a comprehensive private university that's substantially cheaper than TCU and has substantially better graduation rates.

Here's a hint: You'll come up empty, because they aren't out there. You're offering a totally convoluted and self-contradictory argument.


That's anecdote, not data. Show us the numbers.