• The KillerFrogs

Winkler to start Friday...

sous vide

Member
QUOTE(froglicious @ Jun 2 2010, 10:06 AM) [snapback]567059[/snapback]
... don't see that happening.


About the most famous last words in all of baseball!
 

Houston Frog

New Member
QUOTE(2314 @ Jun 2 2010, 07:36 AM) [snapback]567032[/snapback]
Even if Baylor was full of righties I wouldn't pitch a 12-0 pitcher against a bottom feeder.

Winkler and Maxwell both have a better ERA than Purke (if I remember correctly). I'm not saying that they are both better than Purke because of this, but if we're going to be using stats as our reasoning for who to throw and when, I would certainly lean more heavily on ERA than win/loss record. Saying a pitcher is 12-0 sounds cool, and is certainly impressive, but win/loss record is one of the most overrated stats in baseball.
 

TopFrog

Lifelong Frog
QUOTE(Houston Frog @ Jun 2 2010, 08:57 AM) [snapback]567076[/snapback]
Winkler and Maxwell both have a better ERA than Purke (if I remember correctly). I'm not saying that they are both better than Purke because of this, but if we're going to be using stats as our reasoning for who to throw and when, I would certainly lean more heavily on ERA than win/loss record. Saying a pitcher is 12-0 sounds cool, and is certainly impressive, but win/loss record is one of the most overrated stats in baseball.


Schloss I believe is doing what he should ... thinking ahead, potential matchups ... setting up things for the best chances at winning ... whatever he thinks is best ...
 

Houston Frog

New Member
QUOTE(TopFrog @ Jun 2 2010, 09:29 AM) [snapback]567094[/snapback]
Schloss I believe is doing what he should ... thinking ahead, potential matchups ... setting up things for the best chances at winning ... whatever he thinks is best ...

Agreed

I was just disagreeing with 2314's reasoning for agreeing
 

TopFrog

Lifelong Frog
QUOTE(Houston Frog @ Jun 2 2010, 09:39 AM) [snapback]567101[/snapback]
Agreed

I was just disagreeing with 2314's reasoning for agreeing


2314 will bring that out in people ...
 

Longfrog

Active Member
QUOTE(Houston Frog @ Jun 2 2010, 07:57 AM) [snapback]567076[/snapback]
Winkler and Maxwell both have a better ERA than Purke (if I remember correctly). I'm not saying that they are both better than Purke because of this, but if we're going to be using stats as our reasoning for who to throw and when, I would certainly lean more heavily on ERA than win/loss record. Saying a pitcher is 12-0 sounds cool, and is certainly impressive, but win/loss record is one of the most overrated stats in baseball.


True, but ERA isn't that great either. Here are WHIPs, Opp's SLG and K rates for the three starters (racing through this at lunch, so my math could be off)...

__________WHIP____SLG___K/AB
Purke______1.12___0.299__0.338
Max_______1.18___0.343__0.242
Wink______1.20___0.411__0.208

All three are awesome, but Purke stands out as clearly the most dominant.
 

Spike

Full Member
QUOTE(TopFrog @ Jun 2 2010, 02:40 PM) [snapback]567102[/snapback]
2314 will bring that out in people ...


I disagree!


BTW I was in your neck of the woods yesterday, finally ate at Nancy's, good stuff!
 

Houston Frog

New Member
QUOTE(Longfrog @ Jun 2 2010, 12:33 PM) [snapback]567209[/snapback]
True, but ERA isn't that great either. Here are WHIPs, Opp's SLG and K rates for the three starters (racing through this at lunch, so my math could be off)...

__________WHIP____SLG___K/AB
Purke______1.12___0.299__0.338
Max_______1.18___0.343__0.242
Wink______1.20___0.411__0.208

All three are awesome, but Purke stands out as clearly the most dominant.

I understand that there are a lot of advanced metrics being used, and I look at all of them as well, but I look at WHIP, K's/AB, and some of those other metrics as more of an indicator for how good a pitcher's "stuff" is (and a lot of the times, a better indicator of how well their game will translate to the next level). Obviously, a guy like Purke is going to dominate in those types of categories (that's why he was a 1st round pick out of high school), but that doesn't necessarily mean he's our ace. I'd guess Brad Lidge had better K's/AB numbers than Greg Maddux, but that doesn't mean he's a better pitcher.

I understand that ERA isn't the be all end all of pitching stats, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that it isn't a good stat. How many runs a pitcher allows is pretty important, no matter what anyone says. Moral of the story, you can't look at any one stat and determine who is the best pitcher, but if I had to take one, I'd probably still take ERA, with WHIP being a close second (and win/loss record would be towards the bottom).

All that being said, those numbers you put up for Purke are pretty incredible, kid is filthy.
 

Longfrog

Active Member
QUOTE(Houston Frog @ Jun 2 2010, 11:56 AM) [snapback]567218[/snapback]
I understand that there are a lot of advanced metrics being used, and I look at all of them as well, but I look at WHIP, K's/AB, and some of those other metrics as more of an indicator for how good a pitcher's "stuff" is (and a lot of the times, a better indicator of how well their game will translate to the next level). Obviously, a guy like Purke is going to dominate in those types of categories (that's why he was a 1st round pick out of high school), but that doesn't necessarily mean he's our ace. I'd guess Brad Lidge had better K's/AB numbers than Greg Maddux, but that doesn't mean he's a better pitcher.

I understand that ERA isn't the be all end all of pitching stats, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that it isn't a good stat. How many runs a pitcher allows is pretty important, no matter what anyone says. Moral of the story, you can't look at any one stat and determine who is the best pitcher, but if I had to take one, I'd probably still take ERA, with WHIP being a close second (and win/loss record would be towards the bottom).

All that being said, those numbers you put up for Purke are pretty incredible, kid is filthy.


Still wish the Rangers had signed Purke just so I could root for the guy for the next decade. Oh well, guess I'll just have to make the most of his time at TCU.

ERA's not a bad stat, but it's prone to big swings due to luck just like won-loss records (not to the same degree, obviously). I'm not up to speed with advanced metrics like some, but those three stats are the ones I like. How many baserunners do you allow, how hard are you getting hit and how often do you get the guy out without even testing the defense. If you look at all three, I think you get a pretty good idea of what you're dealing with. W/r/t Lidge v. Maddux, I don't know how the other two stats would stack up (with Maddux's BB rate, I bet his WHIP is lower), but starters and closers are different animals anyways.
 

Mike Brooks

New Member
QUOTE(Houston Frog @ Jun 2 2010, 11:56 AM) [snapback]567218[/snapback]
<br />I understand that there are a lot of advanced metrics being used, and I look at all of them as well, but I look at WHIP, K's/AB, and some of those other metrics as more of an indicator for how good a pitcher's &quot;stuff&quot; is (and a lot of the times, a better indicator of how well their game will translate to the next level). Obviously, a guy like Purke is going to dominate in those types of categories (that's why he was a 1st round pick out of high school), but that doesn't necessarily mean he's our ace. I'd guess Brad Lidge had better K's/AB numbers than Greg Maddux, but that doesn't mean he's a better pitcher.<br /><br />I understand that ERA isn't the be all end all of pitching stats, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that it isn't a good stat. How many runs a pitcher allows is pretty important, no matter what anyone says. Moral of the story, you can't look at any one stat and determine who is the best pitcher, but if I had to take one, I'd probably still take ERA, with WHIP being a close second (and win/loss record would be towards the bottom).<br /><br />All that being said, those numbers you put up for Purke are pretty incredible, kid is filthy.<br />


What you said! A confluence of Ranger apathy and Hicks financial woes is our lottery. The fact Purke wanted to come here so badly and is having so much success is awesome. Can't wait to hear info on the next class.
 

TopFrog

Lifelong Frog
QUOTE(Spike @ Jun 2 2010, 12:50 PM) [snapback]567215[/snapback]
I disagree!


BTW I was in your neck of the woods yesterday, finally ate at Nancy's, good stuff!


Thanks for calling ... :rolleyes:
 

ectofrog

New Member
Can't go wrong with any of the three, really. Maybe the best weekend three in the country outside of Austin, and the Frogs have the really stout hitting to go with that pitching.

Personally, I like that Schloss seems to be playing the lefty-righty game. Put an experienced pitcher on the mound in game one, where most of the butterflies are...then bring in the lefty (who happens to have the best stuff) against (presumably) the best team we'll face, a team who has the most left-handed hitting in the field.

This seems like solid strategy to me.

Eat 'em up, Froggies.
 

TCUExaminer

Contributor
QUOTE(Houston Frog @ Jun 2 2010, 12:56 PM) [snapback]567218[/snapback]
I understand that there are a lot of advanced metrics being used, and I look at all of them as well, but I look at WHIP, K's/AB, and some of those other metrics as more of an indicator for how good a pitcher's "stuff" is (and a lot of the times, a better indicator of how well their game will translate to the next level). Obviously, a guy like Purke is going to dominate in those types of categories (that's why he was a 1st round pick out of high school), but that doesn't necessarily mean he's our ace. I'd guess Brad Lidge had better K's/AB numbers than Greg Maddux, but that doesn't mean he's a better pitcher.

I understand that ERA isn't the be all end all of pitching stats, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that it isn't a good stat. How many runs a pitcher allows is pretty important, no matter what anyone says. Moral of the story, you can't look at any one stat and determine who is the best pitcher, but if I had to take one, I'd probably still take ERA, with WHIP being a close second (and win/loss record would be towards the bottom).

All that being said, those numbers you put up for Purke are pretty incredible, kid is filthy.


Agreed. I summarize this pitching staff like this:

TCU's three weekend starters are arguably capable of being #1s on about 90% of the teams in the nation. It's not like there's a clear-cut 1-2-3. It's more a 1-A, 1-B, and 1-C. Because of this, they all have their different strengths and are good for different reasons.

Statistically, one might call Maxwell the best pitcher on the staff. He had one of the most dominating pitching performances of the season against Cal State Fullerton, chasing history into the seventh. He has the best ERA in the rotation by .40 points, which is a pretty considerable difference. I mean, he's good enough that he was originally the "Friday guy."

"Stuff"-wise, one would likely name Purke the best pitcher on the staff. He's been clocked at 97+ and is as an electrifying power pitcher. He racks up lots of strikeouts, which are the easiest way to success because it's impossible to hit off him if you can't touch the ball with the bat. His ERA is the highest between the three, but 1 -- he's a freshman and there was still a learning curve in play this year . . . albeit probably a small one for him. He told me personally in an interview at the beginning of the season though that it had been about a year and a half since he'd faced "real competition" on a regular basis. Still, he went out and "missed bats" and can simply dominate when he's on. 2 -- power pitchers typically give up a few more hits just because the ball flies a little better if you can actually "get on" one. That's the hard part, though.

Winkler (AKA "The Fonz") is the crafty veteran of the staff and really kind of flies under the radar. Simply put, he's the yeoman-like workhorse out there who just asks what day he'll pitch, goes out and does it. He does the dirty work and does what needs to get done for the good of the team. In the process, he allows a few more guys on base than the other two but he still does the ultimate job of a pitcher . . . he keeps them from crossing the plate. If a pitcher allows a few hits here and there, it's not a bad thing. I'd take a pitcher that gives up a crap-load of singles and 2-3 runs per game all day as opposed to a pitcher that walks 3-4 guys, gives up a couple of home runs and leaves after allowing 6 runs. A high WHIP is nothing if the ERA is low.

That's why stats have to be taken together as a whole . . . even wins. A win still means the pitcher did the job that needed to be done that day and kept the team in there for the victory. Just don't use wins alone as a plum-line for good pitching because it doesn't tell the whole story.

There's my two cents.
 

Spike

Full Member
QUOTE(TopFrog @ Jun 2 2010, 06:09 PM) [snapback]567227[/snapback]
Thanks for calling ... :rolleyes:


Sorry, was a business networking kind of thing. Might turn into $, but I don't think they were prepared to discuss the awesomeness that is Horned Frog Baseball.
 

TopFrog

Lifelong Frog
QUOTE(Spike @ Jun 2 2010, 01:37 PM) [snapback]567250[/snapback]
Sorry, was a business networking kind of thing. Might turn into $, but I don't think they were prepared to discuss the awesomeness that is Horned Frog Baseball.


:tongue:

I'll forgive you. If it was at lunch, I was at the gym anyway.
 

jake102

Active Member
I agree with everything you said Examiner, except Purke gave up the fewest hits, doubles, home runs and walks. I'm not advocating he's the best pitcher on the staff this year, but after looking at the stats it appears that Purke gives up more hits within the same inning while he has more 1-2-3 innings as well. If a few of his hits were spread out his ERA would be below 3 like Maxwell's.

But all three pitchers are still equally as good in my eyes... experience makes up for the advantage Purke might have on Maxwell and Winkler. Either way, our staff is darn good.
 

TCUExaminer

Contributor
QUOTE(Jake102 @ Jun 2 2010, 01:51 PM) [snapback]567266[/snapback]
I agree with everything you said Examiner, except Purke gave up the fewest hits, doubles, home runs and walks. I'm not advocating he's the best pitcher on the staff this year, but after looking at the stats it appears that Purke gives up more hits within the same inning while he has more 1-2-3 innings as well. If a few of his hits were spread out his ERA would be below 3 like Maxwell's.

But all three pitchers are still equally as good in my eyes... experience makes up for the advantage Purke might have on Maxwell and Winkler. Either way, our staff is darn good.


I gotcha -- to further elaborate my point, it seemed the hits off Purke were slightly more damaging. But like I said, that really is because he throws harder, and using Newton's (third?) law of motion, "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Meaning -- hard pitch hit squarely = hard hit. But the key lies in the word "squarely." Purke has given guys fits trying to do that.
 

TopFrog

Lifelong Frog
QUOTE(Jake102 @ Jun 2 2010, 01:51 PM) [snapback]567266[/snapback]
I agree with everything you said Examiner, except Purke gave up the fewest hits, doubles, home runs and walks. I'm not advocating he's the best pitcher on the staff this year, but after looking at the stats it appears that Purke gives up more hits within the same inning while he has more 1-2-3 innings as well. If a few of his hits were spread out his ERA would be below 3 like Maxwell's.

But all three pitchers are still equally as good in my eyes... experience makes up for the advantage Purke might have on Maxwell and Winkler. Either way, our staff is darn good.


Purke gave up some runs early in the season, before he settled down.
 

satis1103

DAOTONPYH EHT LIAH LLA
No matter who's better I'm just glad to have the three weekend guys we have (and Garrish as a 4th). This way, you know you've got a shot vs. anyone in the nation, and if someone beats you it was just because they were plain better that day. No more heart palpitations going into big games, knowing you need to outscore someone.
 
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