• The KillerFrogs

Very interesting article about football/insurance

BABYFACE

Full Member
http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id...ing-major-threat-nfl-pop-warner-colleges-espn


Seems like a potential MAJOR issue. I’d honestly never thought about it.

Before all injury lawyers bomb me, I am saying insurance should be responsible for injuries they cover, and sometimes it requires a lawyer to get a stubborn insurer to pay up. But, when it goes beyond a just settlement and a law firm goes for setting themselves up for life time settlement contingency fee, they have gone from wearing a white hat to a black hat. They are seeing $$$$ more than a rightful and just settlement.

Go ahead and bomb away.
 

Hoosierfrog

Tier 1
Before all injury lawyers bomb me, I am saying insurance should be responsible for injuries they cover, and sometimes it requires a lawyer to get a stubborn insurer to pay up. But, when it goes beyond a just settlement and a law firm goes for setting themselves up for life time settlement contingency fee, they have gone from wearing a white hat to a black hat. They are seeing $$$$ more than a rightful and just settlement.

Go ahead and bomb away.

You got it right. As long as the system is set up where the lawyers get paid 25 to 35% of any settlement or award it will always be about the money.
 

Eight

Member
this has been coming for a very, very long time.

at first the squeeze was placed on those buying the coverage and this is why you saw a number of school districts around the country drop football.

you could still find carriers willing to write coverage, but at a price. that has now changed and the attitude isn't just in football.

i have been trying to help an agent find coverage for a start-up construction company in a unique market and it has been an endless string of declines for almost 3 months. quotes given were absurd when you look at the projected first year revenues of the company.

the other big issue with football is that underwriters absolutely hate black holes when you are talking about potential risk. give a good underwriter legitimate numbers for the risk and they can tell you what they think the appropriate premium should be and that does factor in profit.

when however we don't know they used to get pissy and now will decline. a huge part of this issue is what is the potential medical liability for a player seeking damages for cte? go one step further, pinpoint exactly who is responsible for the damage that cause the cte?

too many unknowns and indefinite answers don't look good to an underwriter
 

Opintel

Moderators
This is horrible. State laws need to be amended, and maximums put on monetary awards. Waivers of liability (signed by players or parents/guardians - it that even possible?

Will it happen? Probably not; the end of sports as we know it is getting near. Too profitable to chase those $$$.
 

Hoosierfrog

Tier 1
This is horrible. State laws need to be amended, and maximums put on monetary awards. Waivers of liability (signed by players or parents/guardians - it that even possible?

Will it happen? Probably not; the end of sports as we know it is getting near. Too profitable to chase those $$$.

Most legislators are lawyers, soooo...
 

Surfrog

Active Member
This is the waiver I have all my clients sign:

Participants involved in any activities offered by (MY COMPANY) may be photographed or videotaped during training. The undersigned hereby consents to the use of these photographs and/or videos without compensation, on the (MY COMPANY) website or in any editorial, promotional or advertising material produced and/or published by (MY COMPANY)
Initials: ________


Express assumption of risk: I, the undersigned, am aware that there are significant risks involved in all aspects of physical training. These risks include, but are not limited to: falls which can result in serious injury or death; injury or death due to negligence on the part of myself, my training partner, or other people around me; injury or death due to improper use or failure of equipment; strains and sprains. I am aware that any of these above mentioned risks may result in serious injury or death to myself and or my partner(s). I willingly assume full responsibility for the risks that I am exposing myself to and accept full responsibility for any injury or death that may result from participation in any activity or class while at, or under direction of (MY COMPANY)

I acknowledge that I have no physical impairments, injuries, or illnesses that will endanger me or others. Initials: ________

Release: In consideration of the above mentioned risks and hazards and in consideration of the fact that I am willingly and voluntarily participating in the activities offered by (MY COMPANY), I, the undersigned hereby release (MY COMPANY), their principals, agents, employees, and volunteers from any and all liability, claims, demands, actions or rights of action, which are related to, arise out of, or are in any way connected with my participation in this activity, including those allegedly attributed to the negligent acts or omissions of the above mentioned parties. This agreement shall be binding upon me, my successors, representatives, heirs, executors, assigns, or transferees. If any portion of this agreement is held invalid, I agree that the remainder of the agreement shall remain in full legal force and effect.

If I am signing on behalf of a minor child, I also give full permission for any person connected with (MY COMPANY) to administer first aid deemed necessary, and in case of serious illness or injury, I give permission to call for medical and or surgical care for the child and to transport the child to a medical facility deemed necessary for the well being of the child.

Indemnification: The participant recognizes that there is risk involved in the types of activities offered by (MY COMPANY). Therefore the participant accepts financial responsibility for any injury that the participant may cause either to him/herself or to any other participant due to his/her negligence. Should the above mentioned parties, or anyone acting on their behalf, be required to incur attorney’s fees and costs to enforce this agreement, I agree to reimburse them for such fees and costs. I further agree to indemnify and hold harmless (MY COMPANY), their principals, agents, employees, and volunteers from liability for the injury or death of any person(s) and damage to property that may result from my negligent or intentional act or omission while participating in activities offered by (MY COMPANY), at the main building or abroad. This includes but is not limited to parks, recreational areas, playgrounds, areas adjacent to main building, and/or any area selected for training by (MY COMPANY)

I have read and understood the foregoing assumption of risk, and release of liability and I understand that by signing it obligates me to indemnify the parties named for any liability for injury or death of any person and damage to property caused by my negligent or intentional act or omission. I understand that by signing this form I am waiving valuable legal rights.



Reality is, due to some dumbass case law and the most ridiculous precedent, a lawyer and judge can and would find parts of this (and any "liability release") unenforceable, even though the client is well aware of the risk and all had been made known beforehand. Someone really, really, darned up a few years ago with the precedent case.

I pay about 1000 bucks a year for:
3,000,000 of aggregate general liability insurance
1,000,000 single claim
30,000 immediate medical
and some other smaller stuff.

Knock on wood, in 8 years of being in my field, I have never had anyone get seriously injured (sprained ankle has been the worst) and I hope to keep it that way by not being a dumbass.

I had to put the photo/video clause in there because some princess demanded to be paid for "modeling" when we shot pictures of a class and used them in our website.


EDIT: Unrelated - just had to get hole in one insurance for an event, talk about some fine print...
i.e. the front of the green and the front of the tee box must be at least 160 yards.
The tee location and pin location must be at or more than 167 yards, as measured by the lesser of GPS and laser range finders.
If the green is tiered, the pin must be on the uppermost tier.
The hole must be monitored by at least two people at all times.
The ball must be inspected after by tournament officials to ensure conforming rules.
getting money from insurance is pulling teeth.
 
Last edited:

YA

Active Member
You got it right. As long as the system is set up where the lawyers get paid 25 to 35% of any settlement or award it will always be about the money.
Wouldn’t be a need for lawyers if insurance companies would pay legit claims. Instead people like you were in charge and took company profits and personal bonuses over paying legit claims.

It takes two to tango mr insurance
 

LisaLT

Active Member
In any industry, insurance companies are not in the business of easily paying out claims. Whether it’s home owners, product liability, auto, health - you name it, it’s not ever dealing with insurance companies. I find it appalling how much money I’ve paid for health insurance coverage over many years but lord help me if I get sick and really need that insurance to kick in. And I have a good PPO. The biggest scam is earthquake insurance, which, my deductible is $100,000. I can’t get homeowners insurance without it. Such a ¥€%g$@@ scam.

I need a drink now.
 

Hoosierfrog

Tier 1
Wouldn’t be a need for lawyers if insurance companies would pay legit claims. Instead people like you were in charge and took company profits and personal bonuses over paying legit claims.
We
It takes two to tango mr insurance

You might check with someone who actually works for an insurance company, but most of what I’ve heard is that the only people that get bonuses are officers of the company.

I’m all for getting rid of insurance companies, as they are generally only few scales off the ground above lawyers. But if the insurance companies went away, lawyers would have to collect from the actual person that committed the tort. One advantage that would surely be fewer lawyers.
 

NavyFrog

Active Member
Wouldn’t be a need for lawyers if insurance companies would pay legit claims. Instead people like you were in charge and took company profits and personal bonuses over paying legit claims.

It takes two to tango mr insurance

Unfortunately there are way too many illegitimate claims made. Mrs Navyfrog spent 5 years working as a property claims adjuster for a small insurance company and said 20-25% of the property claims made to her company are out and out fraudulent.

In our "it's not my fault" society, too many people see the a law suit as their winning lotto ticket, whether it has merit or not. Hey, just look at TCU's own Kolby Listenbee. Suing everyone he can because he didn't make it in the NFL.
 

Frogo

Full Member
It's a diversion to talk about lawyers and how much they get paid (IMHO, to help people who otherwise go without help). The real issue is the cost of insurance due to the potential liability for insurance companies arising from our increasing understanding of how dangerous a sport football can be. Or, to be clearer, the more we know about traumatic brain injury and how football contributes to it, the more insurance companies will have to pay out to individuals and families devastated by the effects of TBI. It is an existential threat to football. But football is an existential threat to players. And I love football, so it pains me to consider all that. But the end of the sport at the college level (among others) may be on the horizon.
 
Top