The Harris/Biden Administration: Coming Together to Build Back Better

[gohornedfrogs]

What time frame are we talking? Last 40 years or so? If that's the case, I would say from a legality standpoint, as a country we've moved to the right on gun rights, abortion, international trade, and tax policy, off the top of my head. I'm not sure how much that reflects the opinions of the American public overall (see the disparity between increasing abortion restrictions at the same time as abortion gaining more support), but I could see that argument.

We've certainly moved left on most social issues, with drug liberalization and LGBT issues perhaps being the biggest ones.



To be fair, this cuts both ways. Eisenhower wouldn't get near a Republican ticket today, Reagan would likely be called a RINO, and of course the dominant wing in the party right now hate the Bushes. As @KillerFrog InD KitchenSink said, it feels like it's been more of a horseshoe of extremism in both parties rather than any true cultural shift one way or the other as a whole.

Aside from the weapons ban that expired, there are waaaaaay more gun laws in America than 20-30 years ago. International trade? It’s the leftists who want globalization. You may have a point on corporate taxes, but not on individual taxes, and I don’t really care about the ultra-rich and how much they pay. Middle America pays a lot of taxes and that hasn’t gone down enough to say it’s more conservative than in the past.

We got one win in the entire culture war — abortion — and the nutters have lost their [ Finebaum ]. They forgot about the fifty wins the Democrats got. You wanna place a bet on how the states will ultimately lean on abortion when this all sorts out?

Anybody who mentions God is now labeled a Christo-fascist by people in our own government. I can’t figure out how that is a move to the right.

Democrats make the mistake of thinking that when Republicans don’t agree to change something into what Democrats want, it means the country is moving right. That’s a false metric. Staying right where you are is not moving right.

 

[KillerFrog InD KitchenSink]

Take a look around your community — your grocery store, your schools, your restaurants, etc. — and take a hard look at the way people talk to each other, how they dress, the activities they do, the shows they watch, and tell me how exactly we’ve become “more” conservative. Then look at what we’re taught in schools, at work, and in our social organizations, and tell me exactly how we’ve become “more” conservative?

If JFK suddenly turned up in 2023, he’d be pretty far right on the political scale. Even Bill Clinton circa 1993 would be very much in the middle of today’s political spectrum. This is not really debatable.

To be clear- I didn’t say we’ve become more conservative, I said the average probably hasn’t changed much politically. Republicans and Dems basically have held the Presidency and Congress about 50-50 the last 40 years or so. I do think the vocal minority extremes are a little more visible because of social media and partisan media amplification. I also think there has been a clear disappearance of the “moderate” politician- the median of both parties have clearly moved away from the center. But on the whole I think they balance each other out so that the overall median is about the same, and that is reflected in the election results.

 

[Zubaz]

Aside from the weapons ban that expired, there are waaaaaay more gun laws in America than 20-30 years ago.

Thats a pretty big "aside from", and I think you're forgetting the widespread explosion we saw in concealed carry, and now constitutional carry, since the mid 1980s.

International trade? It’s the leftists who want globalization.

So this is interesting, because it's going to come down to what you consider a "conservative" position. Historically it was the right that favored Free trade (low regulation,free markets with little government interference, etc) while left wings catered to the unions who opposed it and advocated for protectionism. Here's Reagan on the topic. So while Republicans might have moved to the left on trade over the last 10 years, overall our trade policy has moved increasingly "right" in the sense that scale is usually used.

You may have a point on corporate taxes, but not on individual taxes, and I don’t really care about the ultra-rich and how much they pay. Middle America pays a lot of taxes and that hasn’t gone down enough to say it’s more conservative than in the past.

So again, a low tax rate on the rich has again been considered a right wing / conservative proposal, and there can be little doubt that the right have pushed lower top rates over the last few decades, the tax cuts of Reagan, two Bush tax cuts, and Trump tax cuts being good examples.

Democrats make the mistake of thinking that when Republicans don’t agree to change something into what Democrats want, it means the country is moving right. That’s a false metric. Staying right where you are is not moving right.

Agreed here, and as I said before i don't disagree there are plenty of areas as a society we've moved left on (I am old enough to remember Bush actually proposing a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, now no Republican would even suggest trying to ban it) but I think there are some places we've clearly moved right overall as well.

 

[HFrog1999]

Maybe I need to move to Argentina?

 

[LSU Game Attendee]

Thats a pretty big "aside from", and I think you're forgetting the widespread explosion we saw in concealed carry, and now constitutional carry, since the mid 1980s.

So this is interesting, because it's going to come down to what you consider a "conservative" position. Historically it was the right that favored Free trade (low regulation,free markets with little government interference, etc) while left wings catered to the unions who opposed it and advocated for protectionism. Here's Reagan on the topic. So while Republicans might have moved to the left on trade over the last 10 years, overall our trade policy has moved increasingly "right" in the sense that scale is usually used.


So again, a low tax rate on the rich has again been considered a right wing / conservative proposal, and there can be little doubt that the right have pushed lower top rates over the last few decades, the tax cuts of Reagan, two Bush tax cuts, and Trump tax cuts being good examples.


Agreed here, and as I said before i don't disagree there are plenty of areas as a society we've moved left on (I am old enough to remember Bush actually proposing a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, now no Republican would even suggest trying to ban it) but I think there are some places we've clearly moved right overall as well.

In the mid 80s around Ft. Worth it wasn’t uncommon to see pickups with gun racks in the back window, with rifles in them.

 

[KillerFrog InD KitchenSink]

Maybe I need to move to Argentina?

Now that is a head of hair.

 

[gohornedfrogs]

To be clear- I didn’t say we’ve become more conservative, I said the average probably hasn’t changed much politically. Republicans and Dems basically have held the Presidency and Congress about 50-50 the last 40 years or so. I do think the vocal minority extremes are a little more visible because of social media and partisan media amplification. I also think there has been a clear disappearance of the “moderate” politician- the median of both parties have clearly moved away from the center. But on the whole I think they balance each other out so that the overall median is about the same, and that is reflected in the election results.

You’re not taking into account that Republicans have moved left each generation. The balance may be similar to past generations, but everything has shifted left on balance. We accept things today that would have been unheard of 20-30 years ago.

If you took a small-town, conservative Texan from 1985 and dropped them into 2023, they wouldn’t recognize our culture.

 

[KillerFrog InD KitchenSink]

You’re not taking into account that Republicans have moved left each generation. The balance may be similar to past generations, but everything has shifted left on balance. We accept things today that would have been unheard of 20-30 years ago.

If you took a small-town, conservative Texan from 1985 and dropped them into 2023, they wouldn’t recognize our culture.

Seems like some issues they’ve moved to the left, some to the right. In general seems like a maybe more libertarian/ personal liberty views gained traction with conservatives? Maybe that is what you are saying about changing culture?

 

[gohornedfrogs]

Seems like some issues they’ve moved to the left, some to the right. In general seems like a maybe more libertarian/ personal liberty views gained traction with conservatives? Maybe that is what you are saying about changing culture?

What I’m saying is that any person from 1776, 1826, 1876, 1926, or 1976, or 2023 would be left of the previous generation. Go look at some pictures for crying out loud. It’s really not that difficult to understand.

 

[An-Cap Frog]

Conservatives are progressives driving the speed limit.

 

[KillerFrog InD KitchenSink]

What I’m saying is that any person from 1776, 1826, 1876, 1926, or 1976, or 2023 would be left of the previous generation. Go look at some pictures for crying out loud. It’s really not that difficult to understand.

I understand and don’t think it is as simple as you make it out to be.

This is any analysis of the average American but Pew did a recent analysis of Congress using DW-DOMINATE methodology and comparing it over time:

The polarization in today’s Congress has roots that go back decades

On average, Democrats and Republicans are farther apart ideologically today than at any time in the past 50 years.

www.pewresearch.org

https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-cont...ressPolarization_chamber_party_new1.png?w=640

This is the methodology:

DW-NOMINATE places each lawmaker on a two-dimensional scale, much like a standard x-y graph. The first (“horizontal”) dimension is essentially the same as the economic and governmental aspects of the familiar left-liberal/right-conservative political spectrum. The second (“vertical”) dimension typically picks up crosscutting issues that have divided the major parties at various times in American history, such as slavery, currency policy, immigration, civil rights and abortion. But as Poole noted in 2017, since about 2000 that second dimension has faded in significance, to the point where congressional activity has “collapse[d] into a one-dimensional, near-parliamentary voting structure … almost every issue is voted along ‘liberal-conservative’ … lines.”

There is also evidence that self described Republicans are becomes more conservative over time based on GSS data (via 538).

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/enten-datalab-scottwalker-1.png?w=1150

Finally even with social issues there is Gallup polling that there has been a shift to the right of late:

Social Conservatism in U.S. Highest in About a Decade

Thirty-eight percent of Americans say they are conservative on social issues, the highest Gallup has measured since 2012.

news.gallup.com

 

[TCURiggs]

 

[TCURiggs]

The hell is wrong with these people?

 

[FROG2597]

The hell is wrong with these people?

Per Sink and Zubaz this is the normal shifting toward the right we've been witnessing over the years. Damn conservatives are taking over.

 

[What Up Toad]

The hell is wrong with these people?

I've seen some of these that I think cross the line, but this is a tame cheerleading routine if anything. I find the child beauty pageants weirder.

 

[Dogfrog]

I've seen some of these that I think cross the line, but this is a tame cheerleading routine if anything. I find the child beauty pageants weirder.

Guessing you don’t have kids.

 

[TCURiggs]

I've seen some of these that I think cross the line, but this is a tame cheerleading routine if anything. I find the child beauty pageants weirder.

If the cheerleaders doing the routine with little children were actually grown men with penises who were dressed like women in leotards, I guess?

 

[An-Cap Frog]

My daughter is a HS cheerleader and their outfits are way more modest.

 

[CardFrog]

I think social issues take too much air out of the room. Not to discount their importance but many people left and right dig in on one or two social issues and they vote that way no matter what, even if the other side has a much better plan for the overall good of the country. If we didn't learn this with abortion we never will.

 

[Dogfrog]

I think social issues take too much air out of the room. Not to discount their importance but many people left and right dig in on one or two social issues and they vote that way no matter what, even if the other side has a much better plan for the overall good of the country. If we didn't learn this with abortion we never will.

No, millions of unknowns crossing our southern border, including terrorists, plus out of control crime, homelessness, plus [ Finebaum ] economy, plus multiple wars, plus a President and his family receiving payoffs from foreign countries are much more immediate concerns than social issues.