• The KillerFrogs

The Disappearance of Amon G. Carter's Home Field Advantage and Ways to Fix It.

tcumaniac

Full Member
I read and was curious if I drunkenly wrote that. Turns out I have someone living the same life with the same dilemma. Houston fan who loves supporting the program, two young kids, and regularly gives tickets away to keep Frogs butts in the seats. It is getting harder and harder for me to justify paying for my tickets, but with two young boys I am afraid of giving them away too early and losing my priority spot, which as some have mentioned means next to nothing with competing with BMDs. Unfortunately, or fortunately, I married into a bunch of Cajuns and that product down in Baton Rouge is becoming much more fun to be involved with.

I truly do not know where the fix is, aside from TCU just conceding to minimal revenue. I come here and the other TCU sites and can't even sell my tickets for higher profile games for face or less. The only time people take them is when I give them away, which is often. I have said this on other threads but I truly believe it is much more of the obvious numbers and demographic issues. We don't have the alumni base when compared to our stadium size. The easiest fix to me is adding seats to the west side lower bowl, but I do not believe there are thousands of TCU fans who would jump at season tickets if some of the BMD's seats were relinquished and available, unless of course they are next to free.
Wanted to address a few of the points you made.

"I come here and the other TCU sites and can't even sell my tickets for higher profile games for face or less."
  • I get the impression that you are implying a lack of demand even for higher profile games. This is similar to the Froglaw saga at the beginning of the season who listed his extra season tickets for face value on here and received essentially no interest. There is far more demand than you realize. However, you're not going to find it on TCU message boards where the audience consists of diehard TCU fans that most likely already have their own tickets.
"...but I do not believe there are thousands of TCU fans who would jump at season tickets if some of the BMD's seats were relinquished and available, unless of course they are next to free."
  • I think this assumption is largely inaccurate. I am quite confident the demand for premium seats will always outweigh the supply. It's been nearly a decade since the the stadium redesign, and most of the premium seats controlled by big money donors have never become available. If unused premium seats were finally released by BMDs and made available to season ticket holders during the upgrade process, or if more premium seats were created in the west side lower bowl, I think you would be shocked by how much demand there was for them, and how quickly they would be eaten up.
 

steelfrog

Tier 1
For the many years Steel had season tickets, every time that renewal came around there was the deep breath as Steel would consider why is Steel still doing this, but then Steel would just consider it a donation to the school and go ahead and pay it.

Then, B12 came around and we started losing at home, which absolutely drives Steel crazy. Can't stand attending a losing game, particularly at home.

At the same time, TCU raised ticket prices, annually. One year, after we went 2-4 at home, they raised ticket prices 20%. That was the last straw. Steel didn't renew then, and just started cherry picking tickets off stubhub. Never will buy season tickets again for numerous reasons; they are so readily available on stubhub, Steel can pick where he sits, don't have to pay for games can't attend, tickets are usually available below face value, etc.
 

AZfrogs

New Member
I've always liked you as a poster and you've been extremely kind to me in the past, but with all due respect, I think you are way, way off here.

To your first point of "It's not that hard. If there is demand by TCU fans to sit in better seats, then spend the money and get those seats."
  • Your premise is a little silly. Of course there's demand from TCU fans to sit in better seats. The obvious problem is that those better seats simply aren't available.
  • It is my assumption that if someone was willing to stroke TCU a check worth tens of thousands of dollars, there may be some better seats that mysteriously become available that weren't otherwise available through the upgrade process. It would be dumb of TCU not to hold back a certain number of premium seats that are only made available to donors that want to cut the line with big donations. I have no proof that this actually happens, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did.
  • Outside of a situation like that, the opportunity to upgrade to better seats is extremely limited, even for fans with relatively high priority point totals that have bought season tickets for years and donated lots of money. And it's not because all the "good" seats are controlled by TCU fans that use them. If that was the case, this entire thread wouldn't have even been necessary to start. The main problem which you continue to brush off and overlook is this: Many of our stadium's best seats, especially on the East Side, are controlled by people that only intend to resell them on stubhub. Until something is done by TCU to dissuade them from doing this, these seats will never be released, and they will never be made available to TCU season ticket holders.
This brings me to your next point: "The only reason TCU fans aren't sitting in the seats you complain about is because, well, there aren't enough TCU fans."
  • Come on man...this couldn't be further from the truth. There are more than enough TCU fans and season ticket holders to regularly occupy our stadium's best seats. And they'd be fully willing to pay a premium for those better seats. The problem is that a majority of our season ticket holders simply don't have access to them, and until something changes, they never will.
  • That is my entire argument and premise. Stop letting premium seats be controlled for the sole purpose of being resold on stubhub for every single game. Instead, get them in the hands of season ticket holders that will actually sit in them!
THE END!
 

froginmn

Full Member
  • I think this assumption is largely inaccurate. I am quite confident the demand for premium seats will always outweigh the supply. It's been nearly a decade since the the stadium redesign, and most of the premium seats controlled by big money donors have never become available. If unused premium seats were finally released by BMDs and made available to season ticket holders
So I'm wondering what your approach would be to this. Presumably, some donors gave significant amounts of money to TCU and in exchange, they received seats that they have sold on the secondary market.

Would you go back to them and say, "thanks for the big donation you gave us, but we are taking back those seats now"?

I'm guessing your next contact (when you are looking for another big donation) wouldn't go well.

And big money donors are definitely hard to replace.
 

geezer

Colonel, USAF (Retired)

Wishful thinking...

OGC.2bb76b5f19237914977086f31e0d0cc2
 

Horned Toad

Active Member
The only reason TCU fans aren't sitting in the seats you complain about it because, well, there aren't enough TCU fans.


This is wrong. We got "moved" out of our west side seats, which we had for 25+ years due to as someone noted, not being a loyal enough fan to write a large check to the athletic department. I have tried to relocate our six seat to the west side every year. There are not even four seats together, much less 6. Yet, most games I look across the field to where the old seats were and see them either vacant, or with with fan donned in orange or red.
There are plenty of TCU fans, not all have an unlimited entertainment budget. But even if they did, those seat are not becoming available for upgrades.

sf
Like you I was a longtime west side season ticket holder and I’ve spent ever year since getting bumped trying to get back over there. Last year a miracle occurred and there were 4 seats actually together in 110 which is the last section in the northwest corner. I snapped them up. We are now just one section over from where our original season tickets were located. Finding six together like that will be near impossible but keep trying. I was ready to take two and two anywhere at that point before I got lucky.
 

HFrog12

Full Member
Wanted to address a few of the points you made.

"I come here and the other TCU sites and can't even sell my tickets for higher profile games for face or less."
  • I get the impression that you are implying a lack of demand even for higher profile games. This is similar to the Froglaw saga at the beginning of the season who listed his extra season tickets for face value on here and received essentially no interest. There is far more demand than you realize. However, you're not going to find it on TCU message boards where the audience consists of diehard TCU fans that most likely already have their own tickets.
"...but I do not believe there are thousands of TCU fans who would jump at season tickets if some of the BMD's seats were relinquished and available, unless of course they are next to free."
  • I think this assumption is largely inaccurate. I am quite confident the demand for premium seats will always outweigh the supply. It's been nearly a decade since the the stadium redesign, and most of the premium seats controlled by big money donors have never become available. If unused premium seats were finally released by BMDs and made available to season ticket holders during the upgrade process, or if more premium seats were created in the west side lower bowl, I think you would be shocked by how much demand there was for them, and how quickly they would be eaten up.

Just as a friendly response I will address your response on my points.
  • For one, please don't lump me in the FrogLaw saga haha. I have never once complained about not being able to sell my tickets, as justified by the fact that I give the majority away. Not suggesting you are comparing us but had to throw that out there. That being said, I do think there is a lack of demand as evidenced by the secondary market. I am not simply talking about these sites, but both KFC and 247 have people constantly asking for tickets (for free). I have had to haggle with "diehard" fans on here who want me to drop my UT tickets from $60 to $45. These seats are seats near the 50 near the top of the east side, which at any other school, sans maybe BU, would go for at least $100 in heartbeat. I am not trying to make a huge buck just simply get some of my bait back.
  • This continues from the previous point and also into the second, but look at how many dirt cheap tickets go unsold on stubhub. I am with you that they should fix the WSLB and add more seats and help that issue. So if they do that and get a couple hundred more frogs there, does that fix the issue? As you mention, there is certainly a demand for premium seats but not unless it is at a major discount. If I can't even sell my tickets on the secondary market, or these sites, for face then how is there going to be demand to exercise the option for season tickets and lump in the donation that comes with it?
"If unused premium seats were finally released by BMDs and made available to season ticket holders during the upgrade process, or if more premium seats were created in the west side lower bowl, I think you would be shocked by how much demand there was for them, and how quickly they would be eaten up."
  • My opinion, contrary to yours, is that I would not be shocked by the little demand for the premium price that comes with premium seats. There would be tons of demand until people realized what the price would be. If your argument is that TCU gouges on price then you need to look around the country. Everyone wanted East Side clubs, including me for my little ones, until I realized the price and how the new tax laws on the donation fit in. Yes they have had trouble selling but they will eventually get there without having to sell them to me for half the price.
  • I believe I know your politics and understand your economic thoughts are pretty sharp. I am not lumping you into a certain category that some on here do. But some of your rhetoric when it comes to this topic is that TCU should largely subsidize their fanbase and give them the opportunity to get season tickets at a historic discount to other schools, essentially a handout. I already subsidize it for them and put my tickets out there for anyone and everyone and it falls on def ears most of the time. God bless our military because I have used that donation portal more than I would have imagined.
  • Final point, because I am beating a dead horse and no one probably read any of that anyway, is that the clubs are outrageously expensive on the secondary market. But as I take it that isn't your major concern, except for how the closeness of the west side clubs were constructed. But that is a different conversation and we are frankly past that point - AGCS is what it is now for the most part. As we have it now you want the ability for more frogs to be able to be in the WSLB between the 20s. I do think the university can remedy this some by expanding the number of seats by contracting the airport runways. Secondly, maybe they can squeeze out some BMDs and let a group of a few hundred fill in. After you account for those seats, and the fact that clubs will always be expensive and people will always escape to the AC, then you have the rest of the stadium. When looking at the rest of the stadium, including the best east side seats, there are always options on stubhub $100 or below that do not get purchased. If you can't spend $100 on a ticket between the 20s of the east side, then there is in fact a demand issue.
 

steelfrog

Tier 1
Steel had years of experience trying (unsuccessfully) to sell unused tickets on stubhub and made so little money that eventually it was easier just to give them away or let them go unused.

And since non-renewing, Steel has had no trouble getting tickets to any game, and cannot recall ever paying face value.
 

HFrog12

Full Member
Steel had years of experience trying (unsuccessfully) to sell unused tickets on stubhub and made so little money that eventually it was easier just to give them away or let them go unused.

And since non-renewing, Steel has had no trouble getting tickets to any game, and cannot recall ever paying face value.

HFrog12 is considering following in Steel's footsteps. Miraculously this evidence somehow shows that there are thousands of Frog fans just waiting for their opportunity to spend hundreds of dollars, if not thousands, on season tickets when they won't even pay face for a game.
 

tcumaniac

Full Member
So I'm wondering what your approach would be to this. Presumably, some donors gave significant amounts of money to TCU and in exchange, they received seats that they have sold on the secondary market.

Would you go back to them and say, "thanks for the big donation you gave us, but we are taking back those seats now"?

I'm guessing your next contact (when you are looking for another big donation) wouldn't go well.

And big money donors are definitely hard to replace.

Interesting question, but I think we need to adjust the presumptions a little bit.

As I see it, there are two main problems at play.
  1. Big Money Donors that control an excessive number of premium seats, primarily in the west side lower bowl between the 20s, that either go unused or given away to clients or friends that are likely a casual TCU fan at best. (There is no easy fix for this)
  2. Chronic stubhub resellers that control good seats lower down in the east side sections (typically 236, 235, 234, 233, and 232), seats on the lower west side between the endzone and the 20s (sections 101 & 102 and 107, 108, and 109), the 200 level seats outside of the club on the west side (sections 201, 202, 203, 211, 212, and 214), and essentially any of the 300 level west side seats.
There's not much you can do about the seats that regularly go unused that are controlled by the Big Money Donors. A lot of these people have suites, yet also control premium west side lower bowl seats, which is why this section is rarely anywhere close to full. It sucks, because that section used to always be full, and there are fans that had seats there for decades that got pushed aside during the re-seating and now they get to see their old seats sit empty game after game. Best you can do is make a soft ask to those donors asking them to consider releasing any extra tickets they find themselves not frequently using. Wouldn't expect much progress there at all.

However, there is in my opinion, a lot of room for improving the chronic stubhub reseller issue. The main culprits of this are sophisticated and well-to-do TCU fans that already have pretty good seats, but I wouldn't label them as the "Big Money Donors." These are folks that are simply savvy enough to take advantage of a broken system that TCU has created. Hard to turn down the opportunity to get extra priority points and make a profit doing it.

There really wouldn't need to be any difficult conversations had. TCU could simply send out a notice before season ticket renewals to any account flagged as excessively selling tickets on stubhub warning them that moving forward, TCU has the right to revoke seats that are found to be sold on stubhub for more than 50% of the season in order to improve our home field advantage by ensuring that our best seats are being sat in by TCU fans.

And to all the posters that get triggered by this suggestion... it's not a novel idea at all. Most professional sport teams have these exact rules. I know that the Mavs and Stars will take away your seats if they find you are selling more than half of them on stubhub. I was told Stanford took similar actions a few years ago after many of their best seats were being controlled by stubhub sellers.
 

AZfrogs

New Member
Just as a friendly response I will address your response on my points.
  • For one, please don't lump me in the FrogLaw saga haha. I have never once complained about not being able to sell my tickets, as justified by the fact that I give the majority away. Not suggesting you are comparing us but had to throw that out there. That being said, I do think there is a lack of demand as evidenced by the secondary market. I am not simply talking about these sites, but both KFC and 247 have people constantly asking for tickets (for free). I have had to haggle with "diehard" fans on here who want me to drop my UT tickets from $60 to $45. These seats are seats near the 50 near the top of the east side, which at any other school, sans maybe BU, would go for at least $100 in heartbeat. I am not trying to make a huge buck just simply get some of my bait back.
  • This continues from the previous point and also into the second, but look at how many dirt cheap tickets go unsold on stubhub. I am with you that they should fix the WSLB and add more seats and help that issue. So if they do that and get a couple hundred more frogs there, does that fix the issue? As you mention, there is certainly a demand for premium seats but not unless it is at a major discount. If I can't even sell my tickets on the secondary market, or these sites, for face then how is there going to be demand to exercise the option for season tickets and lump in the donation that comes with it?
"If unused premium seats were finally released by BMDs and made available to season ticket holders during the upgrade process, or if more premium seats were created in the west side lower bowl, I think you would be shocked by how much demand there was for them, and how quickly they would be eaten up."
  • My opinion, contrary to yours, is that I would not be shocked by the little demand for the premium price that comes with premium seats. There would be tons of demand until people realized what the price would be. If your argument is that TCU gouges on price then you need to look around the country. Everyone wanted East Side clubs, including me for my little ones, until I realized the price and how the new tax laws on the donation fit in. Yes they have had trouble selling but they will eventually get there without having to sell them to me for half the price.
  • I believe I know your politics and understand your economic thoughts are pretty sharp. I am not lumping you into a certain category that some on here do. But some of your rhetoric when it comes to this topic is that TCU should largely subsidize their fanbase and give them the opportunity to get season tickets at a historic discount to other schools, essentially a handout. I already subsidize it for them and put my tickets out there for anyone and everyone and it falls on def ears most of the time. God bless our military because I have used that donation portal more than I would have imagined.
  • Final point, because I am beating a dead horse and no one probably read any of that anyway, is that the clubs are outrageously expensive on the secondary market. But as I take it that isn't your major concern, except for how the closeness of the west side clubs were constructed. But that is a different conversation and we are frankly past that point - AGCS is what it is now for the most part. As we have it now you want the ability for more frogs to be able to be in the WSLB between the 20s. I do think the university can remedy this some by expanding the number of seats by contracting the airport runways. Secondly, maybe they can squeeze out some BMDs and let a group of a few hundred fill in. After you account for those seats, and the fact that clubs will always be expensive and people will always escape to the AC, then you have the rest of the stadium. When looking at the rest of the stadium, including the best east side seats, there are always options on stubhub $100 or below that do not get purchased. If you can't spend $100 on a ticket between the 20s of the east side, then there is in fact a demand issue.

I would absolutely pay more money for better tickets and know quite a few others that would spend the money as well. However, there are never any available when it’s time to upgrade. We fly in from Arizona for every home game and go to several away games as well.
 

frog-hat

Active Member
Steel had years of experience trying (unsuccessfully) to sell unused tickets on stubhub and made so little money that eventually it was easier just to give them away or let them go unused.

And since non-renewing, Steel has had no trouble getting tickets to any game, and cannot recall ever paying face value.

I now get 4 great east side tickets for any game we care to attend thru stub hub.
 

jake102

Active Member
I would absolutely pay more money for better tickets and know quite a few others that would spend the money as well. However, there are never any available when it’s time to upgrade. We fly in from Arizona for every home game and go to several away games as well.

Why not just buy them on Stub Hub? Cheaper than season tickets and the same seats.
 

HFrog12

Full Member
I would absolutely pay more money for better tickets and know quite a few others that would spend the money as well. However, there are never any available when it’s time to upgrade. We fly in from Arizona for every home game and go to several away games as well.

Every situation is unique and you may have the resources to do that. Would you be willing to pay the fair market value of the seats you actually want to be in? I would love to be in the club and would pay a little more to be but it cost a lot more than "a little more" to move there. If you make donations you will be effectively moving up in the line to be able to upgrade. Again, I agree with Maniac and certain points about making room in the WSLB. If that is where you desire to be and are willing to pay, yet there has never been availability, then its an immovable issue that they should work to fix. However, if you like the clubs, you had/have every opportunity to do that now on the east side. Otherwise, as frog-hat just mentioned, you can find some awesome seats on stub hub on the east side for every game.

The crux is there are a lot of TCU fans, myself included, that want better seats but don't want to pay for the value of them. TCU messed up on some stadium designs and allocating more tickets to BMDs but maybe that was the only incentive to get the stadium done. Now that is in the past and the new gripe is fans want handouts on season tickets. The seats right next to mine sell for an aggregate of 50% of the price I pay for my season tickets and donations.

It used to really bum me out looking over at the WSLB and seeing opposing fans wondering why those couldn't be my season tickets. Then I realize I didn't give tens of thousands of dollars for the rights to those seats and I just enjoy where I am at. There are hundreds of thousands of more fans and alumni at schools like Bama, LSU, and Texas that are willing to pay premium prices for premium seats. That is not the case at TCU. If you want to gripe start comparing us more to Miami and Stanford (which has been mentioned) and look at their attendance, which has been much worse than ours lately.
 

froginmn

Full Member
There really wouldn't need to be any difficult conversations had. TCU could simply send out a notice before season ticket renewals to any account flagged as excessively selling tickets on stubhub warning them that moving forward, TCU has the right to revoke seats that are found to be sold on stubhub for more than 50% of the season in order to improve our home field advantage by ensuring that our best seats are being sat in by TCU fans.

And to all the posters that get triggered by this suggestion... it's not a novel idea at all. Most professional sport teams have these exact rules. I know that the Mavs and Stars will take away your seats if they find you are selling more than half of them on stubhub. I was told Stanford took similar actions a few years ago after many of their best seats were being controlled by stubhub sellers.
You've clearly beaten this topic to death, but I don't think you appreciate the intricacy of taking tickets away from people. Some may not be big money donors but they're likely almost all TCU people and donors to some extent. I wouldn't, as AD, run the risk of pissing those people off, losing donations, and undoubtedly getting numerous calls from angry people if the upside is getting the "true" fans in better seats. Not sure how you can even think there wouldn't be a difficult conversation if you email people to tell them you're taking away their tickets.

And comparing this to what the Stars, Mavs, or even Stanford does is ignoring the fact that our fan base is comparatively very small.
 

AZfrogs

New Member
Why not just buy them on Stub Hub? Cheaper than season tickets and the same seats.

Because we like getting to know the people around us and making friends. We don’t want to have different seats each game. We don’t know many people so do not tailgate. My husband and I both graduated from Iowa State and sent our daughter to TCU. We fell in love with Fort Worth and TCU. Why is it so hard to believe people would pay more money for better seats?
 

AZfrogs

New Member
Every situation is unique and you may have the resources to do that. Would you be willing to pay the fair market value of the seats you actually want to be in? I would love to be in the club and would pay a little more to be but it cost a lot more than "a little more" to move there. If you make donations you will be effectively moving up in the line to be able to upgrade. Again, I agree with Maniac and certain points about making room in the WSLB. If that is where you desire to be and are willing to pay, yet there has never been availability, then its an immovable issue that they should work to fix. However, if you like the clubs, you had/have every opportunity to do that now on the east side. Otherwise, as frog-hat just mentioned, you can find some awesome seats on stub hub on the east side for every game.

The crux is there are a lot of TCU fans, myself included, that want better seats but don't want to pay for the value of them. TCU messed up on some stadium designs and allocating more tickets to BMDs but maybe that was the only incentive to get the stadium done. Now that is in the past and the new gripe is fans want handouts on season tickets. The seats right next to mine sell for an aggregate of 50% of the price I pay for my season tickets and donations.

It used to really bum me out looking over at the WSLB and seeing opposing fans wondering why those couldn't be my season tickets. Then I realize I didn't give tens of thousands of dollars for the rights to those seats and I just enjoy where I am at. There are hundreds of thousands of more fans and alumni at schools like Bama, LSU, and Texas that are willing to pay premium prices for premium seats. That is not the case at TCU. If you want to gripe start comparing us more to Miami and Stanford (which has been mentioned) and look at their attendance, which has been much worse than ours lately.

Yes, we are fortunate and could have bought East Club seats but do not want to sit in the sun. However, my comments have nothing to do with club seats. All I’m saying is that we would pay more for better seats if the opportunity presents itself during the upgrade process. We have four tickets and that’s what makes it hard. If we had only two than we could have done it this year.
 

HFrog12

Full Member
You've clearly beaten this topic to death, but I don't think you appreciate the intricacy of taking tickets away from people. Some may not be big money donors but they're likely almost all TCU people and donors to some extent. I wouldn't, as AD, run the risk of pissing those people off, losing donations, and undoubtedly getting numerous calls from angry people if the upside is getting the "true" fans in better seats. Not sure how you can even think there wouldn't be a difficult conversation if you email people to tell them you're taking away their tickets.

And comparing this to what the Stars, Mavs, or even Stanford does is ignoring the fact that our fan base is comparatively very small.

I can see it now!
  • Thank you BMD's for all of your support and building this stadium. Now that it is fully funded we would like any extra tickets back that you do not use on a regular basis. Now let's re-offer the same base price/donation prorated to seats for all of the "true" fans. Crap it looks like we completely misjudged our entire demographic as one of the smallest, most diverse, and majority female fanbases. Turns out we do not have the fans willing to pay for relinquished seats at the fair market price. I guess we are going to have discount them extremely to the point where most all average fans can afford. The only way to distinguish who gets them is for everyone to send in their resumes and applications showing just how "true" of a fan they are so we can figure out who gets what (you can't pick any more than two of the essay options). Problem solved without people actually having to pay premium prices for premium seats!!!
 

HFrog12

Full Member
Yes, we are fortunate and could have bought East Club seats but do not want to sit in the sun. However, my comments have nothing to do with club seats. All I’m saying is that we would pay more for better seats if the opportunity presents itself during the upgrade process. We have four tickets and that’s what makes it hard. If we had only two than we could have done it this year.

I would need to get fact-checked from someone on this, but if you can afford East Side clubs at $12,500/ticket donation (on the cheap side) and don't want them then I am pretty sure you could get with the FrogClub and figure out what an on par donation is to move up on the priority for better seats of your liking.
 
Top