gohornedfrogs
Tier 1
None of the big names seem to want to go low. It's setting up for Scheffler to shoot 65 today and plant his flag.
PGA Championship pick'em
- Thread starter JogginFrog
- Start date
I have watched some but I'm not able to watch the full telecast, following on the app more than anything.
I mean, it's a major so it's a big tournament with all the best players in the world. And it's not like every hole just sucks and has no character. I'm sure there are some interesting aspects of the course, but you really have to look a lot harder on a course like this. The bar was set pretty low. Greens as the biggest defense of a course is kind of a buzzkill IMO. Let me ask you this, would it be any less interesting if it were played before the course had most of its trees taken out and before it was "brought back to its original intent" or whatever you want to call it? Assuming it was still set up like a major and lengthened to keep up with modern equipment. What about the new design is better than before, hasn't this course always been ranked very high?
And to answer froginmn, and I know you know this, but they can make just about any of these courses about as difficult as they want it to be with how they set it up, so the "higher" scores (even though they aren't that high) don't really mean more interesting, or good.
gohornedfrogs
Tier 1
I still don't see why trees, or the absence of them, make the course any more "interesting." The design is what it is right now. It looks pretty darn good to me. Would a few well-placed trees affect scoring? Maybe.
I'm not debating whether or not it was better before or after the trees were removed. I'm saying by all accounts it looks to be a really good course and is not the least but "uninteresting." It's a hell of a lot better than Valhalla, Bellerive and Harding Park. It's up there with Baltusrol, Quail Hollow, Southern Hills and Bethpage for recent sites.
The recent ones that I really like are Kiawah (because it is so different) and Oak Hill. Oak Hill is grossly underrated at #21.
QuilterFrawg
CDR USN (Ret)
I wish!
froginmn
Fan Club
Sure, they can make the course tougher in a variety of ways - including by adding trees (which might not have a huge impact). The course in its current condition is providing a good challenge today. About 1/4 of the field is under par and the leaders are -3.
"Interesting" and "good" are subjective. Aronimink is routinely rated very highly. I understand that you don't have to like it, but I don't agree.
Because they bring factors into play that air doesn't and generally make hitting shots offline more penalizing. A wider range of outcomes definitely make a course more interesting IMO.
What makes for an interesting course in your opinion?
And what makes Aronimink "a hell of a lot better than Valhalla or Bellerive" other than the fact that it's old, kinda in the northeast, and designed by Donald Ross? Everyone craps on Valhalla and maybe it deserves the disdain but go hole by hole there (or Bellerive for that matter) and tell me what makes Aronimink so much better?
It's like one guy designs a 470 yard straightaway par 4 with some fairway bunkering and some moderately creative bunkering and contours in the green and it's a masterpiece in design, and another guy does essentially the same thing 80 years later and it's considered crap. I honestly don't really get it.
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gohornedfrogs
Tier 1
Visually, it's the shape and placement of bunkers, and the contours and shapes of the greens. It's also the lines the architect creates with design. Strategically, courses that interest me are ones that require you to hit a variety of shots and force you to decide whether or not pushing the ball as far down the fairway off the tee, or laying back, is the best option. Punching out to the fairway from underneath a canopy of trees is not one of those varieties, btw. It may be okay in Texas where you can slice or hook the ball and run it up near or onto the green (that's a skill, I'll admit), but in the NE, with bluegrass/fescue/rye rough, it's not usually an option.
Some of the most memorable shots I've ever hit were from out of the trees in Texas. A big, low slice or hook that ran up on the green. I have very few of those memorable shots from 30 years of golf up here in PA. Trees are also much, much taller up here. My course is full of trees 100 ft. tall or more. Trees in DFW mostly top out at 60 or 70 ft, so you can easily hit it over the top of those.
Honestly having fun with the debate....
I'm just not seeing all the variety that you are I guess. Every hole off the tee looks relatively similar, I don't see much in the way of requiring guys to really think and hit a variety of shots off the tee. The approaches to the greens are tricky but that's just contours and pin placements (and today, wind). I mean, I'm sure it's a great course, it's just not that entertaining to watch the pros take it on relative to others.
As for trees, I'm not saying line every fairway with a forest. But I've seen on shotlink many drives that were 20-30 yards wide of fairways and the penalty was virtually nothing. You want to counter the trend in the game toward long hitters swinging away with little consequence for inaccuracy? Put in trees, that will do it. Bunkers and rough, they hardly even consider them. Staying away from either is never in their "strategy" per se, it's more of an I'll deal with it when I'm faced with it kind of deal. And unless the rough is super deep or they are up against the lip in the bunker, they don't really care much whether they are in either one anyway.
froginmn
Fan Club
Worth noting that Xander set a record with 9 under 62 in the first round of the PGA at Valhalla. And finished at -21.
You keep equating harder with “better and more interesting”. IMO TPC Sawgraas is the ultimate in what I am talking about (although I know you can’t exactly create something like that everywhere), and I think Hoge shot 62 there. So what.
Go hole by hole, what makes Aronimimk so much better than those two courses, from a golf standpoint.
gohornedfrogs
Tier 1
Other than TPC Sawgrass, what courses do you consider outstanding?
Don’t limit it to courses the pros play.
froginmn
Fan Club
Again, you are arguing about an opinion, but you brought in "challenging" as one factor.
You're entitled to your opinion, but that's all it is.
Aronimink is an interesting layout around a "bowl" with a lot of elevation changes and has extremely challenging greens. One of the most intriguing things about it is that those greens haven't changed in 100 years. A course that was designed 100 years ago and made "easier" by removing trees still caused one of the longest hitters on tour to shoot 76 today. Unlike a lot of courses, Aronimink doesn't need to be endlessly lengthened to challenge pros. The architect is known for his greens, which are the hallmark of this course.
As I said, you'll hold on to your opinion while trying to denigrate the opinion of anyone else. It's why a lot of posters don't particularly care for your style.
JogginFrog
Active Member
Wex framed the discussion around course design/set-up for today's pros as it relates to viewer interest, and I agree with him on that. There are only a handful of ways to challenge today's pros:
1. Stroke-and-distance penalty areas
2. Full-stroke-penalty pot bunkers
3. Half-par holes that require go/no-go decisions
4. Tee shots that must curve around an obstacle
5. Awkward lies
6. Baked-out greens
All of those are semi-entertaining for fans, but only the first three affect decision-making for the players, and Aronimink doesn't have much of those. I looked at a handful of course stats from completed tournaments, and the ones with the highest concentration of eagles and doubles+ were the ones you'd expect: Augusta and Sawgrass. The lowest dispersion of scores was at the Tom Doak renovation in Houston.
For personal play, I love the challenges of a Doak design--looking at a downwind, downhill 75-yard approach to a front pin on a green sloped front-to-back and thinking, "I have no idea how to get this inside 40 feet." But the pros would just drive it pin high and get up and down.
1. Stroke-and-distance penalty areas
2. Full-stroke-penalty pot bunkers
3. Half-par holes that require go/no-go decisions
4. Tee shots that must curve around an obstacle
5. Awkward lies
6. Baked-out greens
All of those are semi-entertaining for fans, but only the first three affect decision-making for the players, and Aronimink doesn't have much of those. I looked at a handful of course stats from completed tournaments, and the ones with the highest concentration of eagles and doubles+ were the ones you'd expect: Augusta and Sawgrass. The lowest dispersion of scores was at the Tom Doak renovation in Houston.
For personal play, I love the challenges of a Doak design--looking at a downwind, downhill 75-yard approach to a front pin on a green sloped front-to-back and thinking, "I have no idea how to get this inside 40 feet." But the pros would just drive it pin high and get up and down.
JogginFrog
Active Member
I liked that Hanse returned the big bunkers into multiple smaller bunkers--the chance of an awkward lie is much greater. But I suspect they require a dedicated grounds crew guy to maintain the spaces between those bunker clusters, and I see how clubs eventually say, "Forget that!"
gohornedfrogs
Tier 1
I just saw Corey Conners hit 178 ball speed. I bet he was sub 170 a few years ago. 178 used to be on the edge of being elite. Now? Ho hum.
gohornedfrogs
Tier 1
McIlroy hasn’t hit the Qi40 driver well at all this year. I don’t know why these guys don’t go back to a version that worked well for them. Renegotiate the contract if you have to.
QuilterFrawg
CDR USN (Ret)
@JogginFrog
So how did we do this first round? <wink, wink, nudge, nudge>
Aren't we allowing to change our picks after each round?
So how did we do this first round? <wink, wink, nudge, nudge>
Aren't we allowing to change our picks after each round?
ShreveFrog
Full Member
You can change picks. Sticking with my guys who are a collective +3 though.
JogginFrog
Active Member
Was just planning to post a reminder that you can change your picks for each round!
Top 3 after Round 1:
+4 @bc puckett
+3 @QuilterFrawg
+2 @blazerfrog, @froginmn, @gohornedfrogs, @Putt4Purple
As my dad used to say, "There's a lifetime of golf left to be played." Good luck to all!
hometown frog
Active Member
I’ll ride it out. Hopefully a couple of my -2s go on a run on cut day.
