OT- PGA-Colonial

[JetFlyingFrog]

If the option is to move it to Tiger's new course, then they will choose somewhere in Dallas first. However, this option is not anywhere near being on the table right now. It's too far removed from the city and they don't have the embedded historical infrastructure that Colonial brings in terms of membership, management and fundraising. There's something to be said about stability.

The Colonial course is fine by tour standards. It's still in the upper tier as far as courses go. There are a lot of very mediocre courses on tour compared to Colonial. Colonial is annually in the top 20% in charitable giving, which means the corporate support is there.

As of two months ago, the Nelson was on the chopping block. Colonial was safe. Don't underestimate what those in the Salesmanship club may do, though, to keep it there. Their liability is the current golf course. Their leadership, though, is not bound to the TPC at Craig Ranch like Colonial's is to Colonial, so if they find a good option for a course, they can make their case.

these are all valid responses & i agree.

 

[gohornedfrogs]

unless Schwab stops sponsoring the overall PGA Tour in general including the season long race on the Champions tour - Colonial is not going anywhere

but we are also not getting an level of elevation above the current state unless we get a move in our date or a change in the 4 tournaments that surround us - we are trapped by mediocrity much like the TCU athletic programs....

Rolapp is sending mixed messages on this. He claims purses are going to go way up, and that players are going to have to play more events. In effect, this would help the field at Colonial. The big problem with Colonial not attracting great fields has been where it falls on the schedule, and not the golf course itself. It's now in that gap in between the PGA Championship and the Memorial (years ago, they had the BMW Championship in Germany that paid elite players appearance fees). However, this alleged "contracted" schedule may change some of this dynamic. Elite players will have fewer weeks to get their 20-22 events in if they don't start until February, so Colonial may benefit.

At the same time, he's also talking about "parallel" events. What this means has yet to be defined. But again, I think Colonial may not fall down into that "parallel" category.

Basically, 14-15 events are on the chopping block (or could be moved to that parallel category). These are the tournaments that should be worried. By the way, you could make the case that Colonial is a better golf course than nearly every one of these:

1. Sentry Tournament of Champions (this could just move venues to the mainland since it is a Signature Event, or be rolled into an existing early season event)
2. Sony Open Hawaii
3. Cognizant Classic
4. Puerto Rico Open
5. Valspar Championship
6. Valero Texas Open
7. Houston Open (since it is in Houston, they may be okay)
8. Zurich Classic
9. CJ Cup Byron Nelson
10. John Deere Classic
11. ISCO Championship
12. Corales Puntacana
13. 3M Open
14. Rocket Mortgage Classic
15. Wyndham Championship

 

[Putt4Purple]

Rolapp is sending mixed messages on this. He claims purses are going to go way up, and that players are going to have to play more events. In effect, this would help the field at Colonial. The big problem with Colonial not attracting great fields has been where it falls on the schedule, and not the golf course itself. It's now in that gap in between the PGA Championship and the Memorial (years ago, they had the BMW Championship in Germany that paid elite players appearance fees). However, this alleged "contracted" schedule may change some of this dynamic. Elite players will have fewer weeks to get their 20-22 events in if they don't start until February, so Colonial may benefit.

At the same time, he's also talking about "parallel" events. What this means has yet to be defined. But again, I think Colonial may not fall down into that "parallel" category.

Basically, 14-15 events are on the chopping block (or could be moved to that parallel category). These are the tournaments that should be worried. By the way, you could make the case that Colonial is a better golf course than nearly every one of these:

1. Sentry Tournament of Champions (this could just move venues to the mainland since it is a Signature Event, or be rolled into an existing early season event)
2. Sony Open Hawaii
3. Cognizant Classic
4. Puerto Rico Open
5. Valspar Championship
6. Valero Texas Open
7. Houston Open (since it is in Houston, they may be okay)
8. Zurich Classic
9. CJ Cup Byron Nelson
10. John Deere Classic
11. ISCO Championship
12. Corales Puntacana
13. 3M Open
14. Rocket Mortgage Classic
15. Wyndham Championship

All those courses are subjective and open for debate. Most players have their reasons for favoring one course over another. Geographic location, layout and condition, management, hospitality for themselves and or family. It’s not one single thing. The recent coarse changes and patron visibility difficulties by Colonial does not help! Players have friends and family that walk the course and the more difficult for the average person to follow a player gets back to the players! It’s not a good look right now for Colonial.

 

[Mean Purple]

This is the final year of Schwab's title sponsorship. So... Dang. Hate to think it'll go away. The home of Hogan. Say it ain't so! Sure has a great history. Great list of major champions who also won at Colonial.

Colonial is not going away. And plenty of folks are not happy with the current exec of the PGA Tour.

 

[Mean Purple]

If the option is to move it to Tiger's new course, then they will choose somewhere in Dallas first. However, this option is not anywhere near being on the table right now. It's too far removed from the city and they don't have the embedded historical infrastructure that Colonial brings in terms of membership, management and fundraising. There's something to be said about stability.

The Colonial course is fine by tour standards. It's still in the upper tier as far as courses go. There are a lot of very mediocre courses on tour compared to Colonial. Colonial is annually in the top 20% in charitable giving, which means the corporate support is there.

As of two months ago, the Nelson was on the chopping block. Colonial was safe. Don't underestimate what those in the Salesmanship club may do, though, to keep it there. Their liability is the current golf course. Their leadership, though, is not bound to the TPC at Craig Ranch like Colonial's is to Colonial, so if they find a good option for a course, they can make their case.

The move of the Nelson has continued to dissappoint.

This whole Colonial is doomed stuff pops up every year at this time. And its always just nonsense by folks looking for clicks.

 

[Mean Purple]

colonial is just not a tour quality course especially with the lack of hospitality amenities. it sits next to one of the largest train switchyards in the country and back nine's backdrop are section 8 apartments.
the renovations are subpar and the course isn't even the most pristine in fort worth. down the road i can see this to moving to one of tiger's ventures in west tarrant/parker county.
the only thing keeping colonial alive is history as it is an otherwise mediocre course and a social club for locals.

dude, that's utter nonsense.

 

[Mean Purple]

Just what I have heard from pretty high up.

The folks with the Nelson are pretty worried. You don't even have to be pretty high up to hear it.
Mr. Nelson has been gone for a significant time now. And the move from Las Colinas has been a continued mess.

 

[gohornedfrogs]

All those courses are subjective and open for debate. Most players have their reasons for favoring one course over another. Geographic location, layout and condition, management, hospitality for themselves and or family. It’s not one single thing. The recent coarse changes and patron visibility difficulties by Colonial does not help! Players have friends and family that walk the course and the more difficult for the average person to follow a player gets back to the players! It’s not a good look right now for Colonial.

Again, the course is not the problem. It's where it falls on the schedule.

That being said, the players hated the TPC Sawgrass for decades. It took more than 50 revisions / tweaks to get where it is today. It's my opinion that if Rolapp follows through on this contraction, one of the things he'll have to give back is funneling some money to the courses for upgrades / improvements. Colonial won't like it, but the tour may become even more heavy-handed on course demands.

I'm not a fan of what I've seen of the Hanse redesign. It didn't make it worse, but I don't see a lot of improvement. It fell way short on the "look" they threw out there in the renderings. On TV at least, the so-called "barrancas" look like weed-infested, dried-out creek beds instead of something we thought was going to look like Riviera or LA Country Club. I think some of the hole changes are questionable, and some are improvements.

I take the Golf Digest and Golfweek course rankings with a grain of salt. They've been captured by people who get googly-eyed about Gil Hanse restorations. I do think it's worth noting that they didn't receive the Hanse restorations all that well, despite their idolization of him.

But all of this is having no effect on who shows up. That's all the schedule. Given what's been thrown out there, Colonial will likely have to consider a new date if they want to stay in the mix, and this is a good thing.

 

[Putt4Purple]

I agree with this post. The changes to the coarse from a golfers perspective were overall questionable. The barrancas areas need time to mature hopefully after a few years they will fill in. The most drastic is for the patrons. I won’t beat a dead horse over that point again. The schedule change for the best time of year is debatable. The best time for the maturity and health of the grass is probably early June but that conflicts with other big PGA stops. Let the debate continue!

 

[Wexahu]

Again, the course is not the problem. It's where it falls on the schedule.

That being said, the players hated the TPC Sawgrass for decades. It took more than 50 revisions / tweaks to get where it is today. It's my opinion that if Rolapp follows through on this contraction, one of the things he'll have to give back is funneling some money to the courses for upgrades / improvements. Colonial won't like it, but the tour may become even more heavy-handed on course demands.

I'm not a fan of what I've seen of the Hanse redesign. It didn't make it worse, but I don't see a lot of improvement. It fell way short on the "look" they threw out there in the renderings. On TV at least, the so-called "barrancas" look like weed-infested, dried-out creek beds instead of something we thought was going to look like Riviera or LA Country Club. I think some of the hole changes are questionable, and some are improvements.

I take the Golf Digest and Golfweek course rankings with a grain of salt. They've been captured by people who get googly-eyed about Gil Hanse restorations. I do think it's worth noting that they didn't receive the Hanse restorations all that well, despite their idolization of him.

But all of this is having no effect on who shows up. That's all the schedule. Given what's been thrown out there, Colonial will likely have to consider a new date if they want to stay in the mix, and this is a good thing.

They had a chance that probably comes along once in a generation to really improve the course and they dropped the ball IMO. I'm sure I'll hear that I'm an idiot that knows nothing about golf but I know I'm far from alone in my opinion. If the best they could do to #'s 8, 9, 13 and 16 was what they did, then they weren't using much imagination. Don't really care what Perry Maxwell wanted those holes to look like in 1940, that's not all that relevant to 2025. The more I see of Hanse's work, the more I am unimpressed.

I'm sure it drains really well though.

 

[BrewingFrog]

I agree with this post. The changes to the coarse from a golfers perspective were overall questionable. The barrancas areas need time to mature hopefully after a few years they will fill in. The most drastic is for the patrons. I won’t beat a dead horse over that point again. The schedule change for the best time of year is debatable. The best time for the maturity and health of the grass is probably early June but that conflicts with other big PGA stops. Let the debate continue!

I can remember a time when they were desperately trying to keep the greens alive by dumping ice on them in mid-May...

 

[Putt4Purple]

I can remember a time when they were desperately trying to keep the greens alive by dumping ice on them in mid-May...

That particular incident happened for the woman’s U.S.Open in late June. Not sure of the year but it was hotter than normal that year. It was brutal.

 

[gohornedfrogs]

That particular incident happened for the woman’s U.S.Open in late June. Not sure of the year but it was hotter than normal that year. It was brutal.

It was in July of 1991.

 

[FrogBall09]

. The recent coarse changes and patron visibility difficulties by Colonial does not help! Players have friends and family that walk the course and the more difficult for the average person to follow a player gets back to the players! It’s not a good look right now for Colonial.

You do realize the way the fans are routed right now is due to construction? you keep saying this over and over as if they setup for last year was a permanent thing and not due to the HUGE ASS CONSTRUCTION site where the new building sits....

Other than that - the only change in fan routing over the last 30 years is on the 7th hole where you can't walk behind the green anymore to get to 8 tee area, you have to walk up 9 to see the 8th green

 

[FrogBall09]

They will all be the same on new tour. Off week after majors so Colonial would have an off week before if it stays the same schedule. Only problem now are the changes to the course that many guys dont like

I know about 6 tour players for non-golf related reasons - they all actually liked the changes but said the course needs to mature into them since you could see a lot of inconsistency in the new transition areas. So who are all the "we don't like the changes" pros exactly?

 

[FrogBall09]

I can remember a time when they were desperately trying to keep the greens alive by dumping ice on them in mid-May...

Colonial has a cooling and watering system in the green structure now along with an entirely different type of bent

the issue with anything later than the current date is that playing golf in Texas even in June can be miserable and sweat soaked pros is not a good look

 

[FrogBall09]

Back to back WBB conference titles, a CWS appearance, a CFP natty appearance, a WBVB natty, four NCAA MBB tourneys in 5 years, a men's tennis natty.

That's a lot of "mediocrity" in the last five years

Someone in this thread has small man's syndrome.

yes - actually 1 CWS for baseball and 4 non-competitive years is pretty mediocre.
yes - not even competing for the conference title since getting our butts kicked on national television like no other team before us in football is pretty mediocre

Let's talk about MBB after Thursday if we can manage to not get bounced from round 1. I do agree that we are better than we were for the 20 years before, but we were the worst program in D1 a short time before Dixon came back so had no where to go but up. I am ok with Jamie, but let's not act like making the tourney but hardly ever winning a game is some great accomplishment.

We are definitely a women's sport school now - they are overperforming and it is amazing - unfortunately just like Tennis and the Colonial no one really cares

 

[bronco]

Not only the players but the spectators. Cant watch the golfers unless your funneled into one of the stadium type grandstands with the better seats paid by corporations half empty. This is true for the back nine. The front nine so far is not that way except for #9. Not fun in any way form or fashion anymore!

Went to Colonial for the first time in many years last year. Parked at Rockwood, had no special credentials (no corporate tents etc.), could only get close to a few greens, not spectator friendly, empty corporate tents is a bad look for television, I will not go back. I still love the event and hope we can keep it but going to see it live is no longer available for the average Joe.

 

[gohornedfrogs]

Colonial has a cooling and watering system in the green structure now along with an entirely different type of bent

the issue with anything later than the current date is that playing golf in Texas even in June can be miserable and sweat soaked pros is not a good look

I'm not advocating for a later date, but the PGA Tour never considers "sweat soaked pros is not a good look" as a metric in their decision-making.

Do they do everything they can to avoid really hot weather? Yes. But it's more for course conditioning than concern for the players. The secondary motivation to avoid extreme heat is the effect it may have on ticket sales and sponsor support.

I know there are strikes against an earlier date, but I could make a pitch that it might be better.

 

[BrewingFrog]

Colonial has a cooling and watering system in the green structure now along with an entirely different type of bent

Yep. The bent-grass they had at the time was all the rage, but it was very temperamental. They wanted the greens soft and the grass all stiff and moist, so the solution was pouring ice on the greens at 5am. It slowly watered while cooling the entire green down so that by the afternoon the grass still had some life in it and wasn't blasted and dry.

Greenskeepers are evidently an inquisitive bunch...