OT- PGA-Colonial

[gohornedfrogs]

My PGA contact said that the Byron Nelson at Las Collinas was always a great location because it drew well from both Dallas and Fort Worth and was the better party location than even Colonial was, which kind of surprised me as I thought they both put on a heck of a party. Now that the Byron Nelson is in McKinney it is not drawing as well from the westside of the Metroplex, so that is a strike against them. Colonial has the Stockyards as a very valuable added attraction as it showcases Texas, as we saw during the FIFA events. That’s a positive for Colonial. So Dallas is big and modern, and Fort Worth has the Texas flair. I agree the odds look 50/50 on paper, but the wildcard is “Dallas” and we all know how that usually works out, that may give them the edge. I think it really depends on what Charles Schwab is willing to pony up to continue hosting at Colonial. That could be the deal breaker, all other things being equal, and they’re not.

When it comes down to it, this decision will ultimately be approved by Brian Rolapp and Dhruv Prasad...two guys who barely know which end of the club is the grip, and which end is the clubhead. It's sad that they have their hands on the steering wheel, but that's where we are. They have no idea of the legacy and history of this game.

I have serious doubts that the Stockyards and other FW intangibles will have much impact at all. It's really a few things, likely in this order: (1) Which tournaments have the largest Title Sponsor $ commitments and longest term commitments; (2) which tournament(s) have the best relationships with the PGA Tour; (3) how well can the market support the event (sponsors and ticket sales).

These last few carry the least weight: (4) quality of the golf course; (5) strength of the tournament organizing body (Colonial Charities vs. Salesmanship Club, in this case); (6) historical value of the tournament; (7) Tournament reputation among players themselves (though they are mostly entitled and wealthy, PGA Tour players do notice when some tournaments treat them better than others).

I think Greensboro scored very high with #1, #2 and remarkably #3 above, due to them getting $40 million in taxpayer funding to support the event. Colonial is working on #1 (they'll need to out-bid CJ), #2 could go either direction depending on how recent leadership has treated the Tour. Dallas probably wins #3. Colonial wins #4. #5 is a toss-up (both are very highly regarded in their abilities to conduct a tournament), Colonial wins #6 and maybe #7, too.

Then there's the wild card...what if the Dallas guys lean on Scheffler and Spieth to lobby on their behalf?

Why is the relationship with the PGA Tour important? Because as they've grown and become more inclined to push down their best practices and policies to the individual tournaments, they want partners who push back against them the least. And also because even though the individual event is ultimately responsible for securing its own title sponsor, the PGA Tour staff runs a parallel process of identifying potential title sponsors and they frequently play match-maker. If they like the people at the tournament, then they are more likely to match up that tournament with a title sponsor they have brought to the table. Schwab is an interesting case because they have a relationship with Colonial (obviously), but they have a broader association with the tour in general (25 years as sponsor of the Charles Schwab Cup on Champions Tour). That sponsorship on the Champions Tour ends this year, so with a little luck, they'll send it (and more) to Colonial since their HQ is in the FW area.

 

[Wexahu]

When it comes down to it, this decision will ultimately be approved by Brian Rolapp and Dhruv Prasad...two guys who barely know which end of the club is the grip, and which end is the clubhead. It's sad that they have their hands on the steering wheel, but that's where we are. They have no idea of the legacy and history of this game.

I have serious doubts that the Stockyards and other FW intangibles will have much impact at all. It's really a few things, likely in this order: (1) Which tournaments have the largest Title Sponsor $ commitments and longest term commitments; (2) which tournament(s) have the best relationships with the PGA Tour; (3) how well can the market support the event (sponsors and ticket sales).

These last few carry the least weight: (4) quality of the golf course; (5) strength of the tournament organizing body (Colonial Charities vs. Salesmanship Club, in this case); (6) historical value of the tournament; (7) Tournament reputation among players themselves (though they are mostly entitled and wealthy, PGA Tour players do notice when some tournaments treat them better than others).

I think Greensboro scored very high with #1, #2 and remarkably #3 above, due to them getting $40 million in taxpayer funding to support the event. Colonial is working on #1 (they'll need to out-bid CJ), #2 could go either direction depending on how recent leadership has treated the Tour. Dallas probably wins #3. Colonial wins #4. #5 is a toss-up (both are very highly regarded in their abilities to conduct a tournament), Colonial wins #6 and maybe #7, too.

Then there's the wild card...what if the Dallas guys lean on Scheffler and Spieth to lobby on their behalf?

Why is the relationship with the PGA Tour important? Because as they've grown and become more inclined to push down their best practices and policies to the individual tournaments, they want partners who push back against them the least. And also because even though the individual event is ultimately responsible for securing its own title sponsor, the PGA Tour staff runs a parallel process of identifying potential title sponsors and they frequently play match-maker. If they like the people at the tournament, then they are more likely to match up that tournament with a title sponsor they have brought to the table. Schwab is an interesting case because they have a relationship with Colonial (obviously), but they have a broader association with the tour in general (25 years as sponsor of the Charles Schwab Cup on Champions Tour). That sponsorship on the Champions Tour ends this year, so with a little luck, they'll send it (and more) to Colonial since their HQ is in the FW area.

Agree with a lot here.

But tournaments come and go all the time. I think Colonial is a good event and the course is generally fine and a decent test for the pros when set up properly, but I think people in Fort Worth kind of overstate the awesomeness of the whole thing, relative to other tour events.

 

[Putt4Purple]

Agree with a lot here.

But tournaments come and go all the time. I think Colonial is a good event and the course is generally fine and a decent test for the pros when set up properly, but I think people in Fort Worth kind of overstate the awesomeness of the whole thing, relative to other tour events.

“I think people in Fort Worth kind of overstate the awesomeness of the whole thing, relative to other tour events.”
I want to know where your thoughts are when making an ingenuous, disrespectful, ignorant comment like that.
You obviously are aware of the History of The Colonial National Invitation Golf Tournament. It has been supported for decades by millions here in Fort Worth yet in a once again attempt to gain attention you disrespect Fort Worth people and citizens. You are an attention Briles! Yes you got mine with that snarky comment .
How Wexahu of you! You’re so knowledgeable of Fort Worth people and its citizens that you can make that statement.
You’re not from here and as a typical Yankee you know it all.
Disgusting!

Go Frogs!

 

[Wexahu]

“I think people in Fort Worth kind of overstate the awesomeness of the whole thing, relative to other tour events.”
I want to know where your thoughts are when making an ingenuous, disrespectful, ignorant comment like that.
You obviously are aware of the History of The Colonial National Invitation Golf Tournament. It has been supported for decades by millions here in Fort Worth yet in a once again attempt to gain attention you disrespect Fort Worth people and citizens. You are an attention Briles! Yes you got mine with that snarky comment .
How Wexahu of you! You’re so knowledgeable of Fort Worth people and its citizens that you can make that statement.
You’re not from here and as a typical Yankee you know it all.
Disgusting!

Go Frogs!

I am quite familiar with the tournament and Fort Worth. The fact that you have that reaction to my post sort of proves my point. There is nothing wrong with Fort Worth, and there is nothing wrong with Colonial. Good city, good golf course, I'm not disrespecting anyone unless you're kind of looking for it.

I'll give you a good example of what I'm talking about. People here think it's a joke that the Hartford tournament is on the level that it is. Why is that? What makes Colonial such a better event?

 

[Putt4Purple]

Fair enough. Now that you have put it in that context it changes my answer.
If people here think the Hartford is better which I have not heard before but for arguments sake let’s go with that.
Colonial has more history. A tougher golf course scoring average wise
TPC River Highlands yields an average score roughly 2.0 to 2.5 strokes under par, whereas Colonial Country Club typically plays close to even par or slightly over par.
A subjective viewpoint is Colonial has better looking women since it’s so dang hot here woman have to wear less. “Depending on the woman”! That could be debatable.
Which leads to my last point, IF people here think it’s better at the Hartford it’s because they are watching on TV from their living rooms, a beautiful golf tournament on a beautiful golf course in the middle summer when it’s a 100 degrees hot here and cooler there in Connecticut. They are just jealous! That’s about all I can think of.

 

[gohornedfrogs]

I am quite familiar with the tournament and Fort Worth. The fact that you have that reaction to my post sort of proves my point. There is nothing wrong with Fort Worth, and there is nothing wrong with Colonial. Good city, good golf course, I'm not disrespecting anyone unless you're kind of looking for it.

I'll give you a good example of what I'm talking about. People here think it's a joke that the Hartford tournament is on the level that it is. Why is that? What makes Colonial such a better event?

I'm one of those. The major things that make Colonial better than the Travelers are the history, the golf course, and charitable giving. Colonial gets criticized because it's only 7,289 yards long and has a lot of doglegs that prohibit driver off the tee. Well, TPC River Highlands is only 6,841 yards, and it's built through a housing development -- and the winning score there has been averaging around 19 under. Colonial gets a slight edge on their list of champions, too -- many common big names have won both, but Colonial can boast that Nicklaus, Watson and Hogan won there. Colonial was also once considered a top 20 golf course in the US.

Though the Travelers gets some of the biggest galleries on tour every year -- way more than Colonial -- Colonial averages 4 to 5 times more in annual charitable contributions ($4-5 million vs. $18-20 million).

To me, that's the metric that should be impossible to ignore. The PGA Tour was founded upon the principle that all tournaments would be owned and operated by locally-established charitable organizations, and that net proceeds would benefit the local community. Both Colonial and the Nelson have always been at the very top in terms of charitable giving.

 

[Putt4Purple]

I'm one of those. The major things that make Colonial better than the Travelers are the history, the golf course, and charitable giving. Colonial gets criticized because it's only 7,289 yards long and has a lot of doglegs that prohibit driver off the tee. Well, TPC River Highlands is only 6,841 yards, and it's built through a housing development -- and the winning score there has been averaging around 19 under. Colonial gets a slight edge on their list of champions, too -- many common big names have won both, but Colonial can boast that Nicklaus, Watson and Hogan won there. Colonial was also once considered a top 20 golf course in the US.

Though the Travelers gets some of the biggest galleries on tour every year -- way more than Colonial -- Colonial averages 4 to 5 times more in annual charitable contributions ($4-5 million vs. $18-20 million).

To me, that's the metric that should be impossible to ignore. The PGA Tour was founded upon the principle that all tournaments would be owned and operated by locally-established charitable organizations, and that net proceeds would benefit the local community. Both Colonial and the Nelson have always been at the very top in terms of charitable giving.

Well said

 

[Wexahu]

Fair enough. Now that you have put it in that context it changes my answer.
If people here think the Hartford is better which I have not heard before but for arguments sake let’s go with that.
Colonial has more history. A tougher golf course scoring average wise
TPC River Highlands yields an average score roughly 2.0 to 2.5 strokes under par, whereas Colonial Country Club typically plays close to even par or slightly over par.
A subjective viewpoint is Colonial has better looking women since it’s so dang hot here woman have to wear less. “Depending on the woman”! That could be debatable.
Which leads to my last point, IF people here think it’s better at the Hartford it’s because they are watching on TV from their living rooms, a beautiful golf tournament on a beautiful golf course in the middle summer when it’s a 100 degrees hot here and cooler there in Connecticut. They are just jealous! That’s about all I can think of.

Colonial is a more difficult golf course, that's not debatable, but that's not really all that relevant either. TPC Las Colinas was just as difficult as Colonial and everyone seemed to think that was a trash course when the Nelson was played there (maybe it was because "TPC" was attached to the name). If course difficulty is a major factor in quality of tournament, they should just move the Nelson to Maridoe. Problem solved.

In any event, the players like the Hartford course and seem to think it's a decent challenge. I don't know, maybe it stems from the fact that it doesn't seem to favor a particular type of player (like Colonial). And I never said Hartford was better than Colonial, I said a lot of people from around here seem to think it's a joke that that tournament has as much prestige as it does and that Colonial is way better. Back to my original post, I think the awesomeness attached to Colonial by the Fort Worth natives is kind of overstated.

 

[bc puckett]

I'm one of those. The major things that make Colonial better than the Travelers are the history, the golf course, and charitable giving. Colonial gets criticized because it's only 7,289 yards long and has a lot of doglegs that prohibit driver off the tee. Well, TPC River Highlands is only 6,841 yards, and it's built through a housing development -- and the winning score there has been averaging around 19 under. Colonial gets a slight edge on their list of champions, too -- many common big names have won both, but Colonial can boast that Nicklaus, Watson and Hogan won there. Colonial was also once considered a top 20 golf course in the US.

Though the Travelers gets some of the biggest galleries on tour every year -- way more than Colonial -- Colonial averages 4 to 5 times more in annual charitable contributions ($4-5 million vs. $18-20 million).

To me, that's the metric that should be impossible to ignore. The PGA Tour was founded upon the principle that all tournaments would be owned and operated by locally-established charitable organizations, and that net proceeds would benefit the local community. Both Colonial and the Nelson have always been at the very top in terms of charitable giving.

A couple of thoughts from someone who lives about 15 minutes from TPC Cromwell:

1) I'm not sure that most people realize that about 15 years ago not only did the tournament not have a sponsor, they actually played 1 or 2 year with "bridge sponsorship" they lost their date on tour. They actually had a date set on the Champions Tour until 84 Lumber pulled it's sponsorship from their tournament outside Pittsburgh did Cromwell get a second chance. Travelers then stepped in as a sponsor, got the date the week after the U.S. Open, (it had bounced around the calendar being played in August several times) and made major renovations to not only the course but to the clubhouse, practice area, etc.. It took off from there.

2) While I've never played Colonial (and sadly never will) TPC Cromwell is a joke of a course. Back when I played a ton of golf I was pretty much a hack and didn't take it all that seriously and neither did my playing partners. Play fast, have a few beers and cigars, and have fun. If I had a handicap (I never bothered) it would have been somewhere between 12-14. I broke 80 maybe 25 times in my life and 12 of those were in the 25-30 times I played TPC Cromwell. Again I'll never play Colonial but from watched on TV I can't imagine breaking 100.

I get that the Travelers is usually the second best attended tour stop every year, outside of Phoenix, but in terms of history and golf course there is no comparison. Sad that they are a lock for the new tour set up, while Colonial is hanging in limbo. Hopefully Schwabb, or someone else with deep pockets, steps up.

 

[Wexahu]

A couple of thoughts from someone who lives about 15 minutes from TPC Cromwell:

1) I'm not sure that most people realize that about 15 years ago not only did the tournament not have a sponsor, they actually played 1 or 2 year with "bridge sponsorship" they lost their date on tour. They actually had a date set on the Champions Tour until 84 Lumber pulled it's sponsorship from their tournament outside Pittsburgh did Cromwell get a second chance. Travelers then stepped in as a sponsor, got the date the week after the U.S. Open, (it had bounced around the calendar being played in August several times) and made major renovations to not only the course but to the clubhouse, practice area, etc.. It took off from there.

2) While I've never played Colonial (and sadly never will) TPC Cromwell is a joke of a course. Back when I played a ton of golf I was pretty much a hack and didn't take it all that seriously and neither did my playing partners. Play fast, have a few beers and cigars, and have fun. If I had a handicap (I never bothered) it would have been somewhere between 12-14. I broke 80 maybe 25 times in my life and 12 of those were in the 25-30 times I played TPC Cromwell. Again I'll never play Colonial but from watched on TV I can't imagine breaking 100.

I get that the Travelers is usually the second best attended tour stop every year, outside of Phoenix, but in terms of history and golf course there is no comparison. Sad that they are a lock for the new tour set up, while Colonial is hanging in limbo. Hopefully Schwabb, or someone else with deep pockets, steps up.

Well, the players don't seem to have your same opinion about the course. It isn't hard by Tour standards, but they seem to think it's fair and like playing it.

If you've broken 80 a third of the time while playing Cromwell, you'd have no problem breaking 100 at Colonial, unless you just don't want to. Colonial rating and slope are 76.5/137, and Cromwell is 74.1/138. That's for "normal" conditions. Tournament scoring is largely a function of how they set the course up, but Colonial is about 2.5 strokes harder.

 

[bc puckett]

Well, the players don't seem to have your same opinion about the course. It isn't hard by Tour standards, but they seem to think it's fair and like playing it.

If you've broken 80 a third of the time while playing Cromwell, you'd have no problem breaking 100 at Colonial, unless you just don't want to. Colonial rating and slope are 76.5/137, and Cromwell is 74.1/138. That's for "normal" conditions. Tournament scoring is largely a function of how they set the course up, but Colonial is about 2.5 strokes harder.

Of course they think it's fair. They play it the week after the U.S. Open where the play a real course and actually have to work. Then they get to Cromwell and the winner can shoot 22 under or so and have everyone tell him how great he is.

 

[Wexahu]

Of course they think it's fair. They play it the week after the U.S. Open where the play a real course and actually have to work. Then they get to Cromwell and the winner can shoot 22 under or so and have everyone tell him how great he is.

LOL, tour players don't think like that, all they care about is what they shoot relative to everyone else. Generally, they just want a fair challenge and for whatever reason, they seem to like TPC River Highlands plenty enough.

For what it's worth, the average winning score over the past 20 years there is 3.3 strokes less than Colonial, so less than 1 shot/day.

 

[bc puckett]

LOL, tour players don't think like that, all they care about is what they shoot relative to everyone else. Generally, they just want a fair challenge and for whatever reason, they seem to like TPC River Highlands plenty enough.

For what it's worth, the average winning score over the past 20 years there is 3.3 strokes less than Colonial, so less than 1 shot/day.

Says the expert on what PGA Tour players think. Not surprised as you're an expert on everything else. You are the prime example of someone who is always right and always has to have the last word.

 

[gohornedfrogs]

For any of you golf geeks, I created a spreadsheet that ranks the courses for yardages, and has an adjusted yardage function to it. To compare a par 70 to a par 71 yardage, you typically subtract 150 yards, 300 yards for par 72.

When adjusted, Colonial is not a short course by any measure. It's up there right at the edge of the top third on Tour in length.

The shortest course will surprise you.

Rank	Course	Par	Yardage	Adjustment	Adjusted Yardage
1	Torrey Pines South	72​	7,765​	−300​	7,465​
2	Trump National Doral (Blue Monster)	72​	7,739​	−300​	7,439​
3	Memorial Park	70​	7,412​	0​	7,412​
4	Quail Hollow	71​	7,546​	−150​	7,396​
5	Caves Valley	72​	7,631​	−300​	7,331​
6	Tahoe Mountain Club (Old Greenwood)	71​	7,480​	−150​	7,330​
7	Vidanta Vallarta	71​	7,456​	−150​	7,306​
8	Dunes Golf & Beach Club	71​	7,450​	−150​	7,300​
9	Muirfield Village	72​	7,571​	−300​	7,271​
10	Riviera CC	71​	7,400​	−150​	7,250​
11	TPC Southwind	70​	7,243​	0​	7,243​
12	Colonial CC	70​	7,209​	0​	7,209​
13	Grand Reserve CC	72​	7,506​	−300​	7,206​
14	Innisbrook Copperhead	71​	7,340​	−150​	7,190​
15	Bay Hill	72​	7,466​	−300​	7,166​
16	TPC Toronto (Osprey Valley North)	72​	7,445​	−300​	7,145​
17	TPC Deere Run	71​	7,289​	−150​	7,139​
18	TPC San Antonio (Oaks)	72​	7,438​	−300​	7,138​
19	TPC Twin Cities	72​	7,431​	−300​	7,131​
20	Sedgefield CC	70​	7,131​	0​	7,131​
21	TPC Craig Ranch	72​	7,414​	−300​	7,114​
22	TPC Scottsdale	71​	7,261​	−150​	7,111​
23	Detroit Golf Club	72​	7,370​	−300​	7,070​
24	Harbour Town	71​	7,213​	−150​	7,063​
25	East Lake	72​	7,346​	−300​	7,046​
26	Waialae CC	70​	7,044​	0​	7,044​
27	TPC Louisiana	72​	7,293​	−300​	6,993​
28	PGA National (Champion)	71​	7,125​	−150​	6,975​
29	TPC Sawgrass (Stadium)	72​	7,189​	−300​	6,889​
30	PGA West (Tournament Course)	72​	7,181​	−300​	6,881​
31	TPC River Highlands	70​	6,852​	0​	6,852​
32	Hurstbourne CC	72​	7,085​	−300​	6,785​
33	La Quinta CC	72​	7,060​	−300​	6,760​
34	Pebble Beach	72​	6,972​	−300​	6,672​

 

[Wexahu]

For any of you golf geeks, I created a spreadsheet that ranks the courses for yardages, and has an adjusted yardage function to it. To compare a par 70 to a par 71 yardage, you typically subtract 150 yards, 300 yards for par 72.

When adjusted, Colonial is not a short course by any measure. It's up there right at the edge of the top third on Tour in length.

The shortest course will surprise you.

Rank	Course	Par	Yardage	Adjustment	Adjusted Yardage
1	Torrey Pines South	72​	7,765​	−300​	7,465​
2	Trump National Doral (Blue Monster)	72​	7,739​	−300​	7,439​
3	Memorial Park	70​	7,412​	0​	7,412​
4	Quail Hollow	71​	7,546​	−150​	7,396​
5	Caves Valley	72​	7,631​	−300​	7,331​
6	Tahoe Mountain Club (Old Greenwood)	71​	7,480​	−150​	7,330​
7	Vidanta Vallarta	71​	7,456​	−150​	7,306​
8	Dunes Golf & Beach Club	71​	7,450​	−150​	7,300​
9	Muirfield Village	72​	7,571​	−300​	7,271​
10	Riviera CC	71​	7,400​	−150​	7,250​
11	TPC Southwind	70​	7,243​	0​	7,243​
12	Colonial CC	70​	7,209​	0​	7,209​
13	Grand Reserve CC	72​	7,506​	−300​	7,206​
14	Innisbrook Copperhead	71​	7,340​	−150​	7,190​
15	Bay Hill	72​	7,466​	−300​	7,166​
16	TPC Toronto (Osprey Valley North)	72​	7,445​	−300​	7,145​
17	TPC Deere Run	71​	7,289​	−150​	7,139​
18	TPC San Antonio (Oaks)	72​	7,438​	−300​	7,138​
19	TPC Twin Cities	72​	7,431​	−300​	7,131​
20	Sedgefield CC	70​	7,131​	0​	7,131​
21	TPC Craig Ranch	72​	7,414​	−300​	7,114​
22	TPC Scottsdale	71​	7,261​	−150​	7,111​
23	Detroit Golf Club	72​	7,370​	−300​	7,070​
24	Harbour Town	71​	7,213​	−150​	7,063​
25	East Lake	72​	7,346​	−300​	7,046​
26	Waialae CC	70​	7,044​	0​	7,044​
27	TPC Louisiana	72​	7,293​	−300​	6,993​
28	PGA National (Champion)	71​	7,125​	−150​	6,975​
29	TPC Sawgrass (Stadium)	72​	7,189​	−300​	6,889​
30	PGA West (Tournament Course)	72​	7,181​	−300​	6,881​
31	TPC River Highlands	70​	6,852​	0​	6,852​
32	Hurstbourne CC	72​	7,085​	−300​	6,785​
33	La Quinta CC	72​	7,060​	−300​	6,760​
34	Pebble Beach	72​	6,972​	−300​	6,672​

And Colonial has three par 4's (5, 10 and 17) that basically take driver out of the entire field's hands so that adds about another 200 yards to how it actually plays. It's not a short course at all, that's a major reason why scoring is what it is......one reachable par 5 and zero drivable par 4's, there are no 4/5 pars that are an "easy" birdie with a well played, aggressive tee shot other than maybe #1. Hell, it has a 476 yard hole that 95% of the field hits iron/hybrid off the tee.

It's a hard birdie, easy bogey course.