• The KillerFrogs

Max is not the answer

Froggish

Active Member
I think the offensive line played fine. I mean, jeezus, we had almost 500 yards and people here talk about all the missed deep balls, etc, etc, etc. What in the heck do people expect? 800 yards and scoring a TD on 90% of the possessions? Some expectations are WAY out of whack.

We lost because our front 7 got whipped and couldn't stop the run to save their butts and we couldn't get to the passer. Period. Do those two things "well" and we are talking about how great everything is.

TCU is now ranked over 100th in the country in every major statistical defensive category. Imagine wanting to spend all your time bitching about Max...
 

Wexahu

Full Member
TCU is now ranked over 100th in the country in every major statistical defensive category. Imagine wanting to spend all your time bitching about Max...
Or the O-line. RB averages 7.5/carry and yet still people want to pile on the O-line. Drives me nuts. It’s a common theme though for our fans, O-line never gets much credit for anything, it’s just kind of an assumption that they are no good.
 

BrewingFrog

Was I supposed to type something here?
Or the O-line. RB averages 7.5/carry and yet still people want to pile on the O-line. Drives me nuts. It’s a common theme though for our fans, O-line never gets much credit for anything, it’s just kind of an assumption that they are no good.
Better yet, people want to [ hundin] about the QB, but there is a RB who is averaging 7.5 a carry, is electric every time he touches the ball, and he sits on the bench the whole second half.

Direct your ire at the right targets, people. Max is far from the problem.
 

cctcu

Full Member
Better yet, people want to [ hundin] about the QB, but there is a RB who is averaging 7.5 a carry, is electric every time he touches the ball, and he sits on the bench the whole second half.

Direct your ire at the right targets, people. Max is far from the problem.
Exactly - it's coaching. We do have talent, and not just one good running back. Much better play calling and use of talent could really help. Getting some size on the D line so they can plug holes instead of being small and (supposedly) fast could help too. But apparently this coaching staff, top to bottom, just can't see things in the right perspective and make the right (winning) adjustments. If TCU doesn't clean house after this soon to be disaster of a season, then all our good talent will be headed to the portal. You can bet on that.
 

westoverhillbilly

Active Member
Gary's unfortunately had just decent/mediocre to poor quarterback play over the last 6 years which stresses the defense even though that's not an excuse for Saturday's performance. TCU/SMU was one of those shootout games that every good program has where the quarterback has to hit his open receivers downfield and outscore the opponent to win. Missing at least three overthrows (likely 4 or 5) when the receiver is behind the defender is plain bad quarterback play and is why we lost! Last year, Alabama got into one of these types of games with Ole Miss but pulled it out- the TCU offenses of old won some of these (at BYU in 2005).. I hope like hell that Duggan comes out this week calm and cool and gets his groove, but I'm skeptical and afraid that he just doesn't have it..
 

Pharm Frog

Full Member
Gary's unfortunately had just decent/mediocre to poor quarterback play over the last 6 years which stresses the defense even though that's not an excuse for Saturday's performance. TCU/SMU was one of those shootout games that every good program has where the quarterback has to hit his open receivers downfield and outscore the opponent to win. Missing at least three overthrows (likely 4 or 5) when the receiver is behind the defender is plain bad quarterback play and is why we lost! Last year, Alabama got into one of these types of games with Ole Miss but pulled it out- the TCU offenses of old won some of these (at BYU in 2005).. I hope like hell that Duggan comes out this week calm and cool and gets his groove, but I'm skeptical and afraid that he just doesn't have it..

yep. It’s clear that Max’s overthrows were the reason we lost.

#agenda
#defendgary
 

AroundWorldFrog

Full Member
Gary's unfortunately had just decent/mediocre to poor quarterback play over the last 6 years which stresses the defense even though that's not an excuse for Saturday's performance. TCU/SMU was one of those shootout games that every good program has where the quarterback has to hit his open receivers downfield and outscore the opponent to win. Missing at least three overthrows (likely 4 or 5) when the receiver is behind the defender is plain bad quarterback play and is why we lost! Last year, Alabama got into one of these types of games with Ole Miss but pulled it out- the TCU offenses of old won some of these (at BYU in 2005).. I hope like hell that Duggan comes out this week calm and cool and gets his groove, but I'm skeptical and afraid that he just doesn't have it..
lol, he put 3-4 right on their hands that weren't caught. And maybe 2 real overthrows on deep balls.
 

Eight

Member
Gary's unfortunately had just decent/mediocre to poor quarterback play over the last 6 years which stresses the defense even though that's not an excuse for Saturday's performance. TCU/SMU was one of those shootout games that every good program has where the quarterback has to hit his open receivers downfield and outscore the opponent to win. Missing at least three overthrows (likely 4 or 5) when the receiver is behind the defender is plain bad quarterback play and is why we lost! Last year, Alabama got into one of these types of games with Ole Miss but pulled it out- the TCU offenses of old won some of these (at BYU in 2005).. I hope like hell that Duggan comes out this week calm and cool and gets his groove, but I'm skeptical and afraid that he just doesn't have it..

you honestly believe the problem last weekend was max and the offense?

here is a nice little stat for you. in the second half smu's offense faced 3rd down once before the final drive.

whomever made the decision to go empty inside the frogs 10 to start the second half is a scheissing moron as is whomever decided to minimize evans' touches after the frogs first 4 offensive series, but in the end tcu had a chance with smu pinned back deep and the frog defense could not get off the field.

the frog defense in the last two games has given up 6.4 ypc against cal and smu. they have given up a 3rd down conversion on 13 of 24 3rd downs and over 16 yards per completion.

as froggish has said multiple times in this thread, max hasn't been great, the offense hasn't been perfect, but if you came out of the last two games thinking that first line we watched different games
 

Fiscuits

Active Member
Max is not the problem. Max is a fine QB. And if used effectively within his skill set would be awesome. Even when he is not used in his skill set, he still has awesome "moments".

The problem is, the OC is asking Max to do things a majority of the time, he (and our O line) are not great at. Deep passes and protection for those passes.

Call plays to his strengths and not his weaknesses, the results would be there. Get the ball out of his hands quickly to our play makers (of which we have an embarrassment of riches) and occasionally sneak a QB run in, instead of every 5th play.

We have the #1 RB in the United States on our team. Just give him the damn ball and a lot. Hand off or throw it to him. Matters none.

Max can run. Run like a deer. But we also have 4 runnings backs who can do the exact same thing.
Max can pass, but they have to be shorter routes. We have the receivers to make plays, so let then do it.

What we are asking Max to do, is the equivalent of being pissed at our punter because he doesn't block well.
 
Max is not the problem. Max is a fine QB. And if used effectively within his skill set would be awesome. Even when he is not used in his skill set, he still has awesome "moments".

The problem is, the OC is asking Max to do things a majority of the time, he (and our O line) are not great at. Deep passes and protection for those passes.

Call plays to his strengths and not his weaknesses, the results would be there. Get the ball out of his hands quickly to our play makers (of which we have an embarrassment of riches) and occasionally sneak a QB run in, instead of every 5th play.

We have the #1 RB in the United States on our team. Just give him the damn ball and a lot. Hand off or throw it to him. Matters none.

Max can run. Run like a deer. But we also have 4 runnings backs who can do the exact same thing.
Max can pass, but they have to be shorter routes. We have the receivers to make plays, so let then do it.

What we are asking Max to do, is the equivalent of being pissed at our punter because he doesn't block well.
Excellent analysis.
 

ticketfrog123

Active Member
Max is not the problem. Max is a fine QB. And if used effectively within his skill set would be awesome. Even when he is not used in his skill set, he still has awesome "moments".

The problem is, the OC is asking Max to do things a majority of the time, he (and our O line) are not great at. Deep passes and protection for those passes.

Call plays to his strengths and not his weaknesses, the results would be there. Get the ball out of his hands quickly to our play makers (of which we have an embarrassment of riches) and occasionally sneak a QB run in, instead of every 5th play.

We have the #1 RB in the United States on our team. Just give him the damn ball and a lot. Hand off or throw it to him. Matters none.

Max can run. Run like a deer. But we also have 4 runnings backs who can do the exact same thing.
Max can pass, but they have to be shorter routes. We have the receivers to make plays, so let then do it.

What we are asking Max to do, is the equivalent of being pissed at our punter because he doesn't block well.
Being pissed at a punter for not blocking is the same for being disappointed a 3rd year starter can’t get a deep ball on target?

#MaxApologists
 

Fiscuits

Active Member
Being pissed at a punter for not blocking is the same for being disappointed a 3rd year starter can’t get a deep ball on target?

#MaxApologists
Or, you could look at being pissed at the guy asking the 3rd year starter to make those throws...when he is EXCEPTIONAL at shorter throws 25 yards and under.

Most teams throw "home run" balls 2-3 times a game. We attempt them at least 3 times a half.

It's about asking someone to do things completely out of their obvious skill set, when they have other skills they are really, really good at.
 
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Fiscuits

Active Member
Gary's unfortunately had just decent/mediocre to poor quarterback play over the last 6 years which stresses the defense even though that's not an excuse for Saturday's performance.
Gary is ultimately responsible for the recruits. So if we have poor QB's fire the guy recruiting them, or fire that guys boss.
 

AroundWorldFrog

Full Member
Max is not the problem. Max is a fine QB. And if used effectively within his skill set would be awesome. Even when he is not used in his skill set, he still has awesome "moments".

The problem is, the OC is asking Max to do things a majority of the time, he (and our O line) are not great at. Deep passes and protection for those passes.

Call plays to his strengths and not his weaknesses, the results would be there. Get the ball out of his hands quickly to our play makers (of which we have an embarrassment of riches) and occasionally sneak a QB run in, instead of every 5th play.

We have the #1 RB in the United States on our team. Just give him the damn ball and a lot. Hand off or throw it to him. Matters none.

Max can run. Run like a deer. But we also have 4 runnings backs who can do the exact same thing.
Max can pass, but they have to be shorter routes. We have the receivers to make plays, so let then do it.

What we are asking Max to do, is the equivalent of being pissed at our punter because he doesn't block well.
Max would be a Heisman finalist with Lincoln Riley.
 

Fiscuits

Active Member
To add to the "the problem is/is not Max" debate....go back to the last great running back TCU...LT.

In 2000, we had a serviceable but not all world QB in Casey Printers who could run great and pass "ok" (sound familiar). So...what did we do?

Gave LT 30+ touches a game at minimum. Fran was quoted as saying - "When all else fails - just give it to #5."

Look at Bama....you think they only gave the ball to Derrick Henry 15 times a game?

The combo of Zach Evans, QJ, Spielman, D Davis, Taye, Q Brown, B Conwirght....is enough to score on EVERYONE. And we have four more guys almost as good, or as good as them as freaking subs.

The last game, the OC took 10 touches away from these guys and gave to Max. I would love to see just one freaking game where all Max did was hand off the ball 50 times and throw no pass over 20 yards for the other 25 plays.
 

tcufootballjh98

Active Member
We have the #1 RB in the United States on our team. Just give him the damn ball and a lot. Hand off or throw it to him. Matters none.

Max can run. Run like a deer. But we also have 4 runnings backs who can do the exact same thing.
Max can pass, but they have to be shorter routes. We have the receivers to make plays, so let then do it.

What we are asking Max to do, is the equivalent of being pissed at our punter because he doesn't block well.

Agreed but I do think Meach still needs to call a few deep balls per game to keep them honest. Max did throw a perfect ball to Savion which went right off his hands.
 

Fiscuits

Active Member
Agreed but we still need to take a few deep shots to keep the defense honest. Otherwise those intermediate throws won’t be quite as open.


Agreed but I do think Meach still needs to call a few deep balls per game to keep them honest. Max did throw a perfect ball to Savion which went right off his hands on Saturday.
Agree with this 100% however we do it at least 3 times a half. Should be 2-3 times (at max) a game.
Running is our strength. Running also eats up clock and helps our D.

Running is not always pretty doesn't always make for "excitement"...but it opens up passing and by the 2nd half wears the other team out.
 

Fiscuits

Active Member
Max would be a Heisman finalist with Lincoln Riley.
Very interesting topic. If you look at Lincoln's teams he has had very mobile QB's who could also sling the football to the tune of 2 consecutive, well deserved Heisman Trophies (one of the guys wanted to go to TCU but Gary publicly did not want him, because he didn't like his Dad - but that's a whole another topic of Gary's ridiculousness).

However, even with that talent - they ran the ball ALOT. And, most of the QB runs were not designed. Actually rarely designed. The runs happened out of necessity (scrambling). Which....Max is really, really good at.

Take a look at Spencer Rattler - he is not a runner, at all....so does Lincoln design a ton of running plays for him? Lol...none. Zero.
Maybe 1-2 a game to keep the other team honest that usually go no where.

So why is our OC continually demanding Max throw long balls and designed runs? Things he is not that good at?
And who hired that guy...twice?
Gary Patterson

Edit - Sorry one more thought - remember, last season Lincoln benched Spencer for a while to let him watch the games, coach him from the sideline live and had no issues if Spencer did not work out going to the number two. Who, is on our freaking bench Chandler Morris.
So, if Max is having an off game or its a game the passing game is all we have due to them loading up on the run....why keep force feeding Max when Chandler has better throwing skills , while not as mobile.
 

Eight

Member
Very interesting topic. If you look at Lincoln's teams he has had very mobile QB's who could also sling the football to the tune of 2 consecutive, well deserved Heisman Trophies (one of the guys wanted to go to TCU but Gary publicly did not want him, because he didn't like his Dad - but that's a whole another topic of Gary's ridiculousness).

However, even with that talent - they ran the ball ALOT. And, most of the QB runs were not designed. Actually rarely designed. The runs happened out of necessity (scrambling). Which....Max is really, really good at.

Take a look at Spencer Rattler - he is not a runner, at all....so does Lincoln design a ton of running plays for him? Lol...none. Zero.
Maybe 1-2 a game to keep the other team honest that usually go no where.

So why is our OC continually demanding Max throw long balls and designed runs? Things he is not that good at?
And who hired that guy...twice?
Gary Patterson

Edit - Sorry one more thought - remember, last season Lincoln benched Spencer for a while to let him watch the games, coach him from the sideline live and had no issues if Spencer did not work out going to the number two. Who, is on our freaking bench Chandler Morris.
So, if Max is having an off game or its a game the passing game is all we have due to them loading up on the run....why keep force feeding Max when Chandler has better throwing skills , while not as mobile.

think an added piece to the run game with max is he struggles making decisions in the option game be it the more conventional option game to the edge (really wish he had pitched to evans on the one in the second half) or the zone read where it seems he has a tendency to hold the ball instead of giving it to the back
 
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