LA Daily News: Mystery over Texas boating death of TCU student finally unravels

[Eight]

Agreed. You have to think that surely someone other than that one girl driving saw what happened and just isn’t speaking up yet. Course it was dark….would like to know what type of boat they were on and where or what lights they were running, if any.


Right?? I thankfully have never had any close calls that you have had but I was always aware of the potential. Even when I was in high school, if I were on a section of our lake and I thought there was a boat operator or jet ski people being a little too reckless, I’d up and move our group to a different section.

I was maybe overly cautious but living on a lake just makes you so I think, or at least far more aware of how actual/real the danger can be.

And we all still had fun. My friends never had a bad time, they just knew not to act like total idiots on the boat. And I knew, as the operator, not to be an idiot as well.

agree that darkness is a factor, but out on the water away from the lights of the shore if you have any moonlight you should be able to make out shapes and movements

stem to stern is 22 feet which means the wheel is less than that so how does the person behind the wheel not see what happens in front of them roughly 5 yards away

the article says the boat was set in cruise which means the driver isn't minding the throttle so what was going on that they missed him falling in the water? heck, at that speed him falling in the water should have been heard by someone you would think unless other things were happening

 

[Chico Dusty]

agree that darkness is a factor, but out on the water away from the lights of the shore if you have any moonlight you should be able to make out shapes and movements

stem to stern is 22 feet which means the wheel is less than that so how does the person behind the wheel not see what happens in front of them roughly 5 yards away

the article says the boat was set in cruise which means the driver isn't minding the throttle so what was going on that they missed him falling in the water? heck, at that speed him falling in the water should have been heard by someone you would think unless other things were happening

They said in the article the driver of the boat is the person who saw the push.

 

[Chongo94]

agree that darkness is a factor, but out on the water away from the lights of the shore if you have any moonlight you should be able to make out shapes and movements

stem to stern is 22 feet which means the wheel is less than that so how does the person behind the wheel not see what happens in front of them roughly 5 yards away

the article says the boat was set in cruise which means the driver isn't minding the throttle so what was going on that they missed him falling in the water? heck, at that speed him falling in the water should have been heard by someone you would think unless other things were happening

You should, yes, but on certain sections of my lake, and depending on the moon for that night, you couldn’t see Jack. Although one would think you’d could still see someone or something fall over 5 feet from you….if paying attention.

I’m assuming they may have been blasting music and didn’t hear the splash perhaps….? Total guesses on my part. It just all seems a bit off and I feel for those parents.

 

[Eight]

They said in the article the driver of the boat is the person who saw the push.

if I recall correctly it said she drove the boat earlier in the day and i thought it identified the student whose dad ran the marina as the person who was driving the boat at the time of the incident

could be wrong though

 

[HornyWartyToad]

agree that darkness is a factor, but out on the water away from the lights of the shore if you have any moonlight you should be able to make out shapes and movements

stem to stern is 22 feet which means the wheel is less than that so how does the person behind the wheel not see what happens in front of them roughly 5 yards away

the article says the boat was set in cruise which means the driver isn't minding the throttle so what was going on that they missed him falling in the water? heck, at that speed him falling in the water should have been heard by someone you would think unless other things were happening

Based on the description almost certainly a center-console boat, so the operator was probably no more than 10-12 feet from the bow. And if you're on the water at night you are required to have on at least running lights. If the operator saw him go over, how in the heck you don't immediately kill the motor I don't understand.

 

[Eight]

You should, yes, but on certain sections of my lake, and depending on the moon for that night, you couldn’t see Jack. Although one would think you’d could still see someone or something fall over 5 feet from you….if paying attention.

I’m assuming they may have been blasting music and didn’t hear the splash perhaps….? Total guesses on my part. It just all seems a bit off and I feel for those parents.

been on travis at night many years ago fishing with a friend and you are right that without moon light it is very dark, but I can't recall a night it was so dark I couldn't see front to back on a 12 foot boat

the 22 footer is bigger, but not that much

 

[FrogUltimate]

I don't think it’s really fair to describe it as her pushing him in. It’s pretty obvious they were messing around flirting and in their drunkenness she probably pushed a little harder than she expected and his balance was probably a little worse than expected, then add being on a boat and it’s an accident.

Sucks they covered it up but it’s just an accident. They made a stream of collectively bad decisions to get to that one moment

 

[Eight]

I don't think it’s really fair to describe it as her pushing him in. It’s pretty obvious they were messing around flirting and in their drunkenness she probably pushed a little harder than she expected and his balance was probably a little worse than expected, then add being on a boat and it’s an accident.

Sucks they covered it up but it’s just an accident. They made a stream of collectively bad decisions to get to that one moment

you say it is unfair to say she pushed him in and then use that very word to describe how you imagine it played out

this sounds like me talking to a client who believes that because one of his drivers didn't mean to hit the driver who stopped in front of him that the claim shouldn't be filed on his commercial auto coverage

intent and action are two different things and i don't think anyone said anything other than the cover-up was intentional, but i still say things still don't add up with this story

 

[FrogUltimate]

Just saying the one sentence summary of “she pushed him” makes it sound like it was an action with malicious intent. Typically pushing someone is an aggressive, negative action. Seems clear here that it was a playful action. That’s all.

 

[Chongo94]

been on travis at night many years ago fishing with a friend and you are right that without moon light it is very dark, but I can't recall a night it was so dark I couldn't see front to back on a 12 foot boat

the 22 footer is bigger, but not that much

Yeah, same here. And like HorneyWarty said, running lights are required which again makes me want to know if they were running any.

This would be the type of story that my Dad would mention to me to make sure I understood just how easy bad things can happen on the lake. As a kid, stuff like haunted me.

Hell, I can remember on my lake, there was a guy who was out on his boat joyriding I believe. He was drinking, fell over somehow, didn’t have his cut-off switch clipped to him….the way he fell out caused the boat to come back around right over him. Better believe that has stayed with me ever since.

 

[Eight]

Yeah, same here. And like HorneyWarty said, running lights are required which again makes me want to know if they were running any.

This would be the type of story that my Dad would mention to me to make sure I understood just how easy bad things can happen on the lake. As a kid, stuff like haunted me.

Hell, I can remember on my lake, there was a guy who was out on his boat joyriding I believe. He was drinking, fell over somehow, didn’t have his cut-off switch clipped to him….the way he fell out caused the boat to come back around right over him. Better believe that has stayed with me ever since.

worst night ever was out on the lake by georgetown and we are in some half submerged trees when fog starts popping up

nothing really bad, but i was damn glad it wasn't me driving out of those trees to open water for 5-10 minutes that seemed like an hour

 

[The Artist Formerly Known as PhormerPhrog]

Surprised Lifetime hasn't made a movie out of this. Or another I Know What You Did Last Summer movie.

Having a young boy I can't imagine the grief of a parent raising a child all the way into college and losing him in such a foolish manner. Just awful.

 

[tcudoc]

Yeah, same here. And like HorneyWarty said, running lights are required which again makes me want to know if they were running any.

This would be the type of story that my Dad would mention to me to make sure I understood just how easy bad things can happen on the lake. As a kid, stuff like haunted me.

Hell, I can remember on my lake, there was a guy who was out on his boat joyriding I believe. He was drinking, fell over somehow, didn’t have his cut-off switch clipped to him….the way he fell out caused the boat to come back around right over him. Better believe that has stayed with me ever since.

I am familiar with a similar story. Being run over by the same boat he just fell out of as it circled back around.

 

[froginmn]

Based on the description almost certainly a center-console boat, so the operator was probably no more than 10-12 feet from the bow. And if you're on the water at night you are required to have on at least running lights. If the operator saw him go over, how in the heck you don't immediately kill the motor I don't understand.

If someone falls over the front of a boat going at any faster than wake speed, you're over and past him before you could even think about killing it. At 20 MPH something dropped immediately in front of the boat is under it before you can react.

And as someone who has driven boats forever, your eyes aren't always straight ahead of you on the lake so the likelihood of seeing it happen are even diminished.

 

[HornyWartyToad]

If someone falls over the front of a boat going at any faster than wake speed, you're over and past him before you could even think about killing it. At 20 MPH something dropped immediately in front of the boat is under it before you can react.

And as someone who has driven boats forever, your eyes aren't always straight ahead of you on the lake so the likelihood of seeing it happen are even diminished.

IDK where in the story you come up with 20 mph. That's close to fast enough to pull a skier, and not at all consistent with the story in the paper. The story gives the very clear impression that they were going at idle speed, nothing more.
And as for, "driven boats forever," if your eyes aren't on what's in front of you and you're at anything above idle, you are doing a poor job of piloting that boat.

 

[froginmn]

IDK where in the story you come up with 20 mph. That's close to fast enough to pull a skier, and not at all consistent with the story in the paper. The story gives the very clear impression that they were going at idle speed, nothing more.
And as for, "driven boats forever," if your eyes aren't on what's in front of you and you're at anything above idle, you are doing a poor job of piloting that boat.

"Very clear impression" they were at idle speed?

I went back and read it because my 20 MPH was just an example. Actually the story does specifically say that they were traveling at "just over 10 MPH", which is plenty beyond idle speed. You travel 15 feet per second per 10 MPH, which means they were past his body in 1 1/2 seconds, faster depending upon how much over 10.

At idle speed he wouldn't have made it under the boat. I would suspect they were traveling quite a bit over ten because the body went over the front and was hit by the prop. At barely over ten I would think the V hull might have knocked him to the side and away from the prop.

Try to unexpectedly kill an engine in one second. You'd still run him over and the prop would still be spinning by the time you pulled back the throttle.

And boats travel in open water, there are no lanes and directly oncoming traffic, so yes it's common to look from side to side when driving a boat. You aren't just watching for something coming directly at you; you're looking for watercraft coming from each side both nearby and on the horizon, for anything in the way before you veer left or right, fallen skiers in the water both directly in front as well as to either side (during the day) etc.

 

[HornyWartyToad]

"Very clear impression" they were at idle speed?

​

I went back and read it because my 20 MPH was just an example. Actually the story does specifically say that they were traveling at "just over 10 MPH", which is plenty beyond idle speed. You travel 15 feet per second per 10 MPH, which means they were past his body in 1 1/2 seconds, faster depending upon how much over 10.

​

At idle speed he wouldn't have made it under the boat. I would suspect they were traveling quite a bit over ten because the body went over the front and was hit by the prop. At barely over ten I would think the V hull might have knocked him to the side and away from the prop.

Try to unexpectedly kill an engine in one second. You'd still run him over and the prop would still be spinning by the time you pulled back the throttle.

And boats travel in open water, there are no lanes and directly oncoming traffic, so yes it's common to look from side to side when driving a boat. You aren't just watching for something coming directly at you; you're looking for watercraft coming from each side both nearby and on the horizon, for anything in the way before you veer left or right, fallen skiers in the water both directly in front as well as to either side (during the day) etc.

Lot of speculation there, based on unknown (and by this point unknowable) facts. Yes, it does say "Carson set the cruise on 10," but then goes on to give various conflicting statements about who was at the controls, so any statements about *any* of the facts are dubious. IDK why you think he couldn't have gone under the boat at idle, I think that could absolutely happen if he's too intoxicated to react after going over. Idle speed depends on idle rpm speed, current, and prop pitch, things we don't know.
I suspect my brain was trying to tell me they couldn't have been doing anything more than idle because doing so at night, with people standing up all over the boat, would be so incredibly stupid that I can't even wrap my head around it. Especially with a kid "in charge," whose dad owns a marina and should have been way too experienced to be doing so many different things so incredibly wrong.
As for looking off to the side of the boat... At night? Really? How many times have you struck objects in the water behind you or to the side while driving forward? At night, if you don't have a spotlight illuminating the water directly in front, then you need to have an observer on the bow looking forward and be locked in on the observer, or have your eyes locked on what's in front, and let other people worry about what's off to the side. Yeah maybe you glance off for half a second, just like checking your rearview mirror while driving on the highway, but your focus has to be on what's in front of you. And all of that should be happening at the slowest speed you can manage. With everyone on board sitting their asses down.
End of the day, there is just too much stupidity and lack of truth here to make good guesses about what really happened. It's beyond the pale.

 

[Eight]

Lot of speculation there, based on unknown (and by this point unknowable) facts. Yes, it does say "Carson set the cruise on 10," but then goes on to give various conflicting statements about who was at the controls, so any statements about *any* of the facts are dubious. IDK why you think he couldn't have gone under the boat at idle, I think that could absolutely happen if he's too intoxicated to react after going over. Idle speed depends on idle rpm speed, current, and prop pitch, things we don't know.
I suspect my brain was trying to tell me they couldn't have been doing anything more than idle because doing so at night, with people standing up all over the boat, would be so incredibly stupid that I can't even wrap my head around it. Especially with a kid "in charge," whose dad owns a marina and should have been way too experienced to be doing so many different things so incredibly wrong.
As for looking off to the side of the boat... At night? Really? How many times have you struck objects in the water behind you or to the side while driving forward? At night, if you don't have a spotlight illuminating the water directly in front, then you need to have an observer on the bow looking forward and be locked in on the observer, or have your eyes locked on what's in front, and let other people worry about what's off to the side. Yeah maybe you glance off for half a second, just like checking your rearview mirror while driving on the highway, but your focus has to be on what's in front of you. And all of that should be happening at the slowest speed you can manage. With everyone on board sitting their asses down.
End of the day, there is just too much stupidity and lack of truth here to make good guesses about what really happened. It's beyond the pale.

you last statement sums it up for me, even with people supposedly coming clean things still don't make sense be it there was too much alcohol, sun, and anything else involved or things were happening at that time they don't want known

 

[HornyWartyToad]

you last statement sums it up for me, even with people supposedly coming clean things still don't make sense be it there was too much alcohol, sun, and anything else involved or things were happening at that time they don't want known

Classic truism, it's not the crime it's the cover-up. If they had all just fessed up at the outset with law enforcement, someone would have picked up a BWI, and possibly intoxicated manslaughter, probably gotten probation or minimal jail time. The boy's parents could have buried him knowing what really happened, and maybe could have let the pain go and not need to sue everyone in sight.

Instead, the kids decided that they would all collude to avoid any consequences for anybody so as not to put a crimp in their lifestyle. Now plenty of criminal charges for everybody to go around, in addition to what would have happened up front if they'd been honest. And I'm guessing not a one of them, nor their parents, have known a day's peace in the time since, and probably won't for a long time.

 

[ftwfrog]

Way too many “What really happened!??” detectives on here. As stated, The kids drank way too much, made some bad decisions and then panicked when they should’ve just told the truth. They were trying to make it look like there wasn’t alcohol involved. The poor girl that playfully pushed Jack didn’t try to hurt him. They were playing grabass.

Drinking too much, making bad decisions, panicking, playing grabass. All things that I did way too much between the age of 18-22 while at TCU. Thankfully I survived.

Just such a sad story.