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Discussion in 'Scott & Wes Frog Fan Forum' started by ThisIsOurTime, May 4, 2020.
In the 1st place, Jesus was a Jew and never a Christian. Now Christianity was a development, by man, of Christ's teachings as they saw it. Women were not involved in the development of practically any religion...so figuratively man made. With several religions, and of course there are many, profess that they are the highway to heaven or paradise.
Most religion's teachings are very similar in their morality, several of these are way before Christ's appearance. And several also proclaim their religion comes straight from the Creator.... and maybe so. Without Constantine and the Roman Empire's desperate attempt to solidify the Empire with one religion... Christianity may have remained a very small/scattered religion around the Mediterranean.
"Women were not involved in the development of practically any religion."
just when i thought you couldn't be more wrong about anything after some of the things you have said in the covid thread you go and lower the bar to dead sea level
well done sleepy, well done................................
Even as a kid, when I was required to do Christian stuff, I never felt comfortable with it. It felt weird and unnatural. But my parents were firm believers and that meant I was going to be raised as a believer whether I liked it or not. My mom was an ordained minister and my parents met in Seminary. But I really didn't find it remotely enjoyable. As I got older, my dislike grew and I just felt thoroughly uncomfortable with all of it.
Further, I started to analyze religion as a whole. It first started when I learned about Judaism from a friend in second grade. That started the seed of whether or not what I was being told was true. How could all these other people not believe in Jesus if it was true. This snowballed the more I learned about other religions and started to realize that they couldn't all be right. And so I started thinking more about Christianity and started to see things that didn't make sense.
A big thing that really turned me off was about my mom. When I was born, we were Baptists. Mom felt God called her to the ministry but the Baptist church refused to ordain her. So we became Disciples of Christ because they would ordain women. But I was bothered that people would tell my mom she couldn't do what she believed God specifically told her to do.
I started seeing so-called Christians act like bigoted jerks or that they didn't like it when a minister told them to do things they didn't like. I saw ministers run out of jobs.
I briefly explored other beliefs but ultimately they all felt silly and false. The more I read about science, astrophysics, evolution, and chemistry the more it seemed to me that the universe wasn't designed to be specifically for humans but rather humans exist because the conditions just happened to be right for it all to work. I had a moment of clarity where infinity became something I could comprehend and I no longer needed a creator for things to work.
So basically, it Christianity never felt comfortable and the more I learned and thought about things, the less likely it seemed to be true.
What other beliefs? And if you discovered Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?
Yes, but nobody's ever proved it to me and if I can't get proof with one of my five senses, then I'm simply not going to believe it. I tried to be a believer for the vast part of my 60+ years and it never came through.. Just because some other people believe it doesn't mean that I'm going to..
Oh, thank you very much.
Is that it .?. you're just going to Red Herring this low level retort. Obviously you don't understand the development of religion and the figures of religious writings..
There were no women at the Council of Nicea,... 300 male Bishops and Priests. They developed and determined which 4 gospels of the approximately 50 gospels would be in the New Testament.. No Mary/ Phillip/ or even Thomas Gospels, as many were burnt if the Council didn't like them. Many copies of the other gospels were hiden as not to be lost to history for ever..... and later several turned up via archaeologists.
The development of the Muslim(Islam) religion, Muhammad and scribes(Quran)...male.
Buddhism..., developed via male only..
Torah ... totally male developed and written.
I looked into Judaism and various "pagan" beliefs but it all came down to none of them felt real either. I require proof and no religion has ever given it to me. Faith is all well and good, I guess, but I'm not wired that way. Either God made me a non-believer for some absurd reason or he doesn't exist.
Short of God or Jesus showing up at my doorstep and giving me absolute proof, I don't think there's anything out there that would convince me Christianity is true. And even if they did show up, I'd have a lot of questions and they'd have to convince me why they were worthy enough to have my devotion.
You and Eight are both correct, really. Women have had plenty to do with development of religions, the problem is their influence gets written out or at least significantly diminished by the men that write it all down.
written out and diminished by men........huh? so why then would the bible have the very first witnesses of the resurrected christ be women and trust the pivotal moment of the faith to individuals who can't even bear witness in a legal court at the time?
tell you what, we now you don't give it any credence toby so dismiss as you wish and asleep, well you are asleep so.......
Please clarify ... women were part of the writings and figures.... but the development of most all the religions... I still contend women played practically no role in what scriptures were used. It was a male dominated cultural thing back then.
Eight... if you are still to thick to get it . John the Baptist was a very important written figure in the NT... he was a figure that Baptized Jesus... but he played no role in the development of the NT. That development of the NT was done in 325 AD in Nicea, in todays Turkey. .
Geez, Eight I'm actually agreeing with you. Women were highly influential in the early days of Christianity. But subsequent history (controlled by men) has not elevated their roles to equal fame as most of the early male Christians.
You might be able to do it, but how many people can name, off the top of their head, the numerous women that worked side by side with the apostles? Sure everyone knows Mary, mother of Jesus, and Mary Magdalene (who was later misidentified as a Briles... I wonder how that happened...). And Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist. Perhaps Susanna? Phoebe, Joanna, Lois, Sapphira, Lydia, Euodia, Syntyche? There are many others listed in the New Testament, but it is almost always the men that get the most press. Women are often mentioned in servant roles or as wives.
And then you have 1 Tim 2:12 that for some reason was really popular with the people (men) that started defining the tenets of Christianity. How many denominations allow women to be priests or ministers? The Catholics have no problem giving a woman sainthood, but the'll be darned if they are going to let them be priests because the Bible and the Pope says it's against God's rules. From my own history, I was there when the Baptists flat out refused to ordain my mother because she was a woman.
It should also be noted that Luke 24:11 has the 11 apostles not believing the women about Jesus being alive. Matthew and John simply say the women went and told the 11 but have no record of the 11's response. Mark actually has Jesus rebuking the 11 for not believing the women, but it's interesting that this verse is part of chapter 16, verses 9-20 (the end of Mark) which does not appear in the oldest manuscripts of Mark's gospel.
At any rate, it's also interesting that Mary Magdalene is the only constant in the discovery of the resurrection. She is specifically named in all four gospels as having gone to the tomb Sunday morning, but her associates differ:
Matthew: MM and "the other Mary" only
Mark: MM, Mary mother of James, and Salome
Luke: MM, Joanna, Mary mother of James, and "the others"
John: MM only
And since Mary Magdalene is one of the most important women, who is also a follower of Jesus, in the New Testament, it seems strange to me that subsequently she was erroneously turned into a redeemed prostitute by the men in charge (notably Pope Gregory the Great in 591 C.E.). It's debated whether this was by design or by an actual misunderstanding of the texts (confusing MM with a different Mary), but regardless, it downgraded the worthiness of quite possibly the most important woman in the New Testament.
the problem is you are referring the actions of organized religon and i think there is where the issue comes in some of this for those of us who are of christian faith.
additionally, i think you are missing the key point about whether mary magdaline was a prostitute or not. throughout the old and new testament you continually have individuals of questionable backgrounds, character flaws etc...who are used to to achieve things beyond the normal means of their time. the very fact they were flawed and rejected often times by religious and cultural society only reinforces the counterculture nature of the christian faith
I'm not naive enough to think that any kind of back and forth on a message board will even begin to convince you of anything, so I just want to be clear that convincing to change your mind isn't my goal. But reading your post about your logical and investigative approach towards religion made me think of a guy named Jim Warner Wallace. Thought you mind find him somewhat interesting.
This guy came and spoke at the Fort Worth prayer breakfast this past year in the Will Rogers Coliseum and I thought the way he presented his story was extremely compelling.
Wallace was a devout atheist for the majority of his life and went on to become an extremely renowned homicide detective that investigated a number of high-profile cold-case murders. Some of his cases were featured on Dateline NBC.
Anyway, he essentially tired to use his same investigative techniques that he uses for cold case murders to disprove the Bible, specifically that there is no valid proof that Jesus was actually killed and resurrected (the resurrection of Jesus being the singular event that either validates or invalidates the entire message of Christianity). Anyway, to his great surprise, he eventually comes to the conclusion that there is overwhelming historical evidence that Jesus did indeed die and resurrect from the dead.
Whether you agree with his logic or not, I found it pretty fascinating to hear him walk through how he broke everything down and came to his ultimate conclusion.
Here's a short video summarizing his story:
This is the longer video recording of his entire presentation of his "findings" and how he came to them:
Rumor has it that the Mother of Jesus was female. Perhaps you have others information about this claim.
1). Saints and clerics are two entirely ENTIRELY different things. Why even try to equate the two?
2). Can a man give birth? No. Is that some cosmic injustice that women, and only women, are chosen for motherhood? I don't think it is.
If we accept biological realities about different roles for men and women, and I think everyone outside of the most stringent fourth-wave feminists do, why then is it so inappropriate to believe that God has ordained differing roles to men and women in the Church family? Not because women aren't holy, worthy, or in ant way "lesser" than men, but because God decided that the role of Bishop / Priest / Deacon is for men.
You don't want to know.
My personal belief is that the main thing that led to the death of the dinosaurs was a misplaced reliance on a 5 WR formation and 2 yard passes.