• The KillerFrogs

FWST: Why TCU won’t hesitate to start true freshman Max Duggan this season

MTfrog5

Active Member
A more reasonable comparison is that he just saw Brock Purdy take over half way through the season for a struggling Iowa State team and go 6-1.

I've become a broken record about this on 247, but I hope like hell our coaches have the guts to start Max Duggan. With Justin still not healthy and Baldwin still recovering from surgery, Max clearly has the highest upside potential. Everything coming out of TCU is that Max has been exceptional and continues to do nothing but impress. Son of a head coach. Weight room junkie. Film room junkie. Student of the game. Tremendous arm. 4.5 speed. Natural leader. Red hair. The kid has it all.

I don't care what people say about Alex Delton. He's a tremendous athlete, but he is NOT a Big 12 Championship caliber QB. Despite our atrocious quarterback play last year, there were two schools in the Big 12 that had a lower QB rating than us: KU and KState. Their sloppy seconds won't be winning us a championship.

And most importantly our season sets up PERFECTLY for breaking in a freshman QB. Our first real challenge at ISU isn't until week 6 due to an early bye week.

This is our year to compete for a championship. We have almost all the pieces, which includes a seasoned offensive line. We lose a ton of elite play makers after this season (Darius, Reagor, Niang, Blacklock, Gaines, Gladney to name a few), so we can't screw around and squander away this opportunity with a transfer QB with limited upside.

If Max is anywhere close to even with Delton or Collins coming out of fall camp, you start the freshman. He has the highest upside, more than a month of winnable games to get up to speed, and gives us the best chance to win a Big 12 Championship and beyond. All aboard the Max Train. Choooo Choooo! Letssssss go!
You’ve talked me into this on 247 and I’m definitely on board
 

4th. down

Active Member
You’ve talked me into this on 247 and I’m definitely on board

Kinda leaning this way too. Delton never played a whole season at Kansas State due to injuries so there's that. We need a no. 2 to step right in and lead. Based on our info. now with the injuries and so forth, believe both Delton and Duggan are playing about equal leading up to conference. Delton does not slide, he runs like a RB so if history repeats, Duggan will be ready from participation in the non conference games. Once Duggan starts, he's going to be hard to beat out.
 

ticketfrog123

Active Member
Saw this post on Reddit regarding Duggan:

“I played against this guy in high school and can tell you froggy bros is the real deal. It was pretty much a 1v11 when we played against him and he would still win.“

And the following comment was a respectable follow-up referencing the low-level competition he played in Iowa.

Tap the breaks a bit.

From what I saw, the best offensive player on the school that beat Duggan’s will be a walk-on at Iowa while one OL has a scholarship offer to Iowa
 
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texas_sicilian

Full Member
And the following comment was a respectable follow-up referencing the low-level competition he played in Iowa.

Tap the breaks a bit.

From what I saw, the best offensive player on the school that beat Duggan’s will be a walk-on at Iowa while one OL has a scholarship offer to Iowa
No, I’m not going to “tap the breaks here”. He shined at the Elite 11, was the #5 dual threat in the nation, has really impressed the coaches and players since coming here in January with his work ethic and maturity.

Until I hear otherwise, I am going to presume he has just as much a shot as Delton, Collins, or Rogers - and could even surpass. We’ll see.
 
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MTfrog5

Active Member
No, I’m not going to “tap the breaks here”. He shined at the Elite 11, was the #5 dual threat in the nation, has really impressed the coaches and players since coming here in January with his work ethic and maturity.

Until I hear otherwise, I am going to presume he has just as much a shot as Delton, Collins, or Rogers.
What impressed me reading about him last year and the elite 11 was how he was out performing pro style guys. He isn’t able to show off any of his running skills at the elite 11
 

Froggish

Active Member
Kinda leaning this way too. Delton never played a whole season at Kansas State due to injuries so there's that. We need a no. 2 to step right in and lead. Based on our info. now with the injuries and so forth, believe both Delton and Duggan are playing about equal leading up to conference. Delton does not slide, he runs like a RB so if history repeats, Duggan will be ready from participation in the non conference games. Once Duggan starts, he's going to be hard to beat out.

Delton did get injured a lot at K-State but he was wildly inconsistent and by the end of last year had lost his job to Skylar Thompson. I know people close to the K-State program and while he was beloved by pretty much everyone, he was told to accept a back up role to Skylar or move on..He was not going to be competing for the job this year at K-St.
 

ticketfrog123

Active Member
No, I’m not going to “tap the breaks here”. He shined at the Elite 11, was the #5 dual threat in the nation, has really impressed the coaches and players since coming here in January with his work ethic and maturity.

Until I hear otherwise, I am going to presume he has just as much a shot as Delton, Collins, or Rogers - and could even surpass. We’ll see.

Can’t reason with anyone who is so hyper-focused on Elite 11. We should put a ton of weight into spring games, too.

Sean White won Elite 11 in 2013 and Blake Barnett won it in 2014 over Rosen, Lock, and Kyler.

On a numbers basis, half the Elite 11 guys don’t pan out...it’s not a good indicator of anything.
 

texas_sicilian

Full Member
Can’t reason with anyone who is so hyper-focused on Elite 11. We should put a ton of weight into spring games, too.

Sean White won Elite 11 in 2013 and Blake Barnett won it in 2014 over Rosen, Lock, and Kyler.

On a numbers basis, half the Elite 11 guys don’t pan out...it’s not a good indicator of anything.
It was literally one of three different examples I used, including recent comments from coaches and players over the last month.

Not going to argue over this. I think he’s going to be a stud. You’re skeptical. Is what it is.
 

Froggish

Active Member
Can’t reason with anyone who is so hyper-focused on Elite 11. We should put a ton of weight into spring games, too.

Sean White won Elite 11 in 2013 and Blake Barnett won it in 2014 over Rosen, Lock, and Kyler.

On a numbers basis, half the Elite 11 guys don’t pan out...it’s not a good indicator of anything.

Sean White played HS football in FL and Barnett in CA...HS competition is also not a good indicator of anything either.All we have are physical tools and past success. None of which can or should be a substitute for coaching and development. Cumbie needs to bring in smart physically gifted QBs and then develop them well.
 

Chongo94

Active Member
Cautiously optimistic about Duggan. The quality of competition in Iowa does worry me, however. But as Froggish mentioned, you basically dance with who “brung ya” and it isn’t necessarily the end all be all by any means thankfully.

At this point, I’d much rather see Duggan over Delton. I’ve seen that dance....
 

Eight

Member
Sean White played HS football in FL and Barnett in CA...HS competition is also not a good indicator of anything either.All we have are physical tools and past success. None of which can or should be a substitute for coaching and development. Cumbie needs to bring in smart physically gifted QBs and then develop them well.

exhibit 1 - shawn robinson - was a highly regarded sophomore playing in a very good program guyer program and whose only two losses in 2014 were to allen and slc (tough to top those two programs when you are talking metroplex competition)

two years later he was the starting quarterback for desoto when they won their only state football title and among the teams they beat were guyer, cedar hill, duncanville, killeen, slc, abilene, cedar hill a second time, and finally cibolo steele.
 

Eight

Member
reading all the comments about rankings and ratings i took a quick look at the top quarterback prospects on 247 (not picking on them, they just were the easiest to search through).

obviously in an an era where we have all the passing coaches and camps, summer passing leagues, and all the recruiting combines you would expect that there would be a fairly high hit rate on the top quarterback recruits right?

any guesses what percentage of the top 10 quarterback recruits from 2010-2018 made a significant impact on the field for the original team they signed with out of high school?

here is the list and i didn't include the school they signed with because if they made the impact you would expect from 5 and high 4-star quarterback prospects you would be able to recognize simply by their name right?

2010
philip sims
blake bell
devin gardner
jesse scroggins
rob bolden
tyler bray
jake heaps
connor woods
paul joness
barry brunetti

2011
jeff driskel
braxton miller
kiehl frazier
brett hundley
christian lemay
max wittek
teddy bridgewater
bubba starling
j.w. walsh
jacoby birssett

2012
jameis winston
gunner kiel
zach kline
cyler miles
anthony alford
tanner mangnum
matt davis
conner brewer
chad kelly
chad voyttik

2013
max browne
christian hackenberg
shane morris
cooper bateman
kevin olsen
troy williams
brice ramsey
cody thomas
asianti woulard
j.t. barrett

2014
kyle allen
deshaun watson
will grier
keller chryst
jerrod heard
brandon harris
david cornwell
drew barker
jacob park
brad kaaya

2015
josh rosen
blake barnett
kyler murray
jarrett stidham
brandon wimbush
deondre francois
brady white
jake browning
rick town
drew lock

2016
shea patterson
jacob eason
k.j. costello
malik henry
feleipe franks
brandon peters
jarret guarantano
dwayne haskins
brandon mcilwain
jack allison

2017
davis mills
hunter johnson
tua tagovailoa
jake fromm

tate martell
jack sears
kellen mond
sam ehlinger

dylan mccaffrey
myles brennan

2018
trevor lawrence
justin fields
j.t. daniels
dorian thompson-robinson
justin rogers
tanner mckee
matt corral
jarein williams
phil jurkovic

couple of things that stood out are that alabama, ou, and uga have been qb recruit grave yards for their recruits.

ou has done much, much better with their qb transfers than the highly regarded qb prospects they have signed.

we keep hearing how the star rating is the best predictor of an nfl future, but looking back at these classes that doesn't seem to hold to form as compared to other positions such as defensive line.
 

Froggish

Active Member
reading all the comments about rankings and ratings i took a quick look at the top quarterback prospects on 247 (not picking on them, they just were the easiest to search through).

obviously in an an era where we have all the passing coaches and camps, summer passing leagues, and all the recruiting combines you would expect that there would be a fairly high hit rate on the top quarterback recruits right?

any guesses what percentage of the top 10 quarterback recruits from 2010-2018 made a significant impact on the field for the original team they signed with out of high school?

here is the list and i didn't include the school they signed with because if they made the impact you would expect from 5 and high 4-star quarterback prospects you would be able to recognize simply by their name right?

2010
philip sims
blake bell
devin gardner
jesse scroggins
rob bolden
tyler bray
jake heaps
connor woods
paul joness
barry brunetti

2011
jeff driskel
braxton miller
kiehl frazier
brett hundley
christian lemay
max wittek
teddy bridgewater
bubba starling
j.w. walsh
jacoby birssett

2012
jameis winston
gunner kiel
zach kline
cyler miles
anthony alford
tanner mangnum
matt davis
conner brewer
chad kelly
chad voyttik

2013
max browne
christian hackenberg
shane morris
cooper bateman
kevin olsen
troy williams
brice ramsey
cody thomas
asianti woulard
j.t. barrett

2014
kyle allen
deshaun watson
will grier
keller chryst
jerrod heard
brandon harris
david cornwell
drew barker
jacob park
brad kaaya

2015
josh rosen
blake barnett
kyler murray
jarrett stidham
brandon wimbush
deondre francois
brady white
jake browning
rick town
drew lock

2016
shea patterson
jacob eason
k.j. costello
malik henry
feleipe franks
brandon peters
jarret guarantano
dwayne haskins
brandon mcilwain
jack allison

2017
davis mills
hunter johnson
tua tagovailoa
jake fromm

tate martell
jack sears
kellen mond
sam ehlinger

dylan mccaffrey
myles brennan

2018
trevor lawrence
justin fields
j.t. daniels
dorian thompson-robinson
justin rogers
tanner mckee
matt corral
jarein williams
phil jurkovic

couple of things that stood out are that alabama, ou, and uga have been qb recruit grave yards for their recruits.

ou has done much, much better with their qb transfers than the highly regarded qb prospects they have signed.

we keep hearing how the star rating is the best predictor of an nfl future, but looking back at these classes that doesn't seem to hold to form as compared to other positions such as defensive line.

Good info... QBs aren’t an exact science..it’s not who you get as much as who you develop
 

Eight

Member
Good info... QBs aren’t an exact science..it’s not who you get as much as who you develop

eyeballed the list and there are a number of prospects who left the school they signed with for whatever reason and had success at the school they ultimately landed.

i also think there is something to be said with being able to identify the particular skills, etc..... you want at a specific position and as you say developing that talent.

think this is what gary is referring to when he talks about finding overachievers though in my mind they are more under recruited, under recognized prospects more so than over achieving college players.

lucas niang is a perfect example. he was the #50 ot prospect in 2016. go look at the list of the 49 other ot prospects that supposedly were better than lucas. lucas made an impact from the first year on and yet there supposedly were 49 other offensive tackles better than him.

i think the task of ranking prospects is impossible. comparing them is hard enough, but how many of those experts really paid attention to the #3 prospect in connecticut that year.

a few quarterbacks who were in the top 50 during that time period people might have heard about:

2011
johnny manziel #22
marcus mariotta #31
dak prescott #42

2013
mitch trubisky #19
jared goff #21

2014
patrick mahomes ii #30

2015
sam darnold #13
lamar jackson 328

2016
justin herbert #43
 

FrogByBirth

Ticket Exchange Pass
A more reasonable comparison is that he just saw Brock Purdy take over half way through the season for a struggling Iowa State team and go 6-1.

I've become a broken record about this on 247, but I hope like hell our coaches have the guts to start Max Duggan. With Justin still not healthy and Baldwin still recovering from surgery, Max clearly has the highest upside potential. Everything coming out of TCU is that Max has been exceptional and continues to do nothing but impress. Son of a head coach. Weight room junkie. Film room junkie. Student of the game. Tremendous arm. 4.5 speed. Natural leader. Red hair. The kid has it all.

I don't care what people say about Alex Delton. He's a tremendous athlete, but he is NOT a Big 12 Championship caliber QB. Despite our atrocious quarterback play last year, there were two schools in the Big 12 that had a lower QB rating than us: KU and KState. Their sloppy seconds won't be winning us a championship.

And most importantly our season sets up PERFECTLY for breaking in a freshman QB. Our first real challenge at ISU isn't until week 6 due to an early bye week.

This is our year to compete for a championship. We have almost all the pieces, which includes a seasoned offensive line. We lose a ton of elite play makers after this season (Darius, Reagor, Niang, Blacklock, Gaines, Gladney to name a few), so we can't screw around and squander away this opportunity with a transfer QB with limited upside.

If Max is anywhere close to even with Delton or Collins coming out of fall camp, you start the freshman. He has the highest upside, more than a month of winnable games to get up to speed, and gives us the best chance to win a Big 12 Championship and beyond. All aboard the Max Train. Choooo Choooo! Letssssss go!


I don’t disagree with a thing you said here.

The only comment I would make on Delton is how is any QB ever suppose to do £¥\]]@#$ in a 1965 style Kansas State offense?!?!
Hell, Aaron Rodgers would look like crap in that offense.

So, if he has the savvy and grit to win 14 games........let’s let the coaches do their thing.
 
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