• The KillerFrogs

FWST: Why playing this year’s AT&T Byron Nelson means so much to Fort Worth’s J.J. Henry

Colonial remains in a precarious relationship in it's future with the PGA. Every year the PGA threatens Colonial. The main reason it's still on the tour is because the Byron Nelson has failed so miserably. With the PGA moving their offices to Frisco, eventually, the Byron Nelson will be there also and Colonial will be the first to go. For some reason, some of the better known professional players complain about the narrow fairways. Last year it was whiney Rory McElroy.

As stated above Colonial is going to spend 20+ million on course improvements, but tradition will eventually succomb to PGA bad decisions and entitled players.
The PGA TOUR is not moving their offices to Frisco.

That’s the PGA of America, and they have nothing to do with the Byron Nelson or any of the other 48 or so PGA TOUR events except for one — The PGA Championship.
 

flyfishingfrog

Active Member
Shady is just too short and tricked up to be considered a great championship course IMO. Pros would never hit more than a wedge into a par 4 out there. Fun to play though no doubt.

Dan Jenkins had about a biggest case of good 'ol day syndrome of any human alive and he loved him some Colonial and Hogan, so he naturally was going to pump up the course as much as possible. #5 is a hybrid off the tee and a 6 or 7-iron these days for the tour guys, just not what it used to be. But I liked the brown river and rail yard part.

Again, Colonial, good course, best in town. Just overrated a bit IMO.
Saying #5 isn’t a good test because the pros can hit a hybrid and 6 is the exact opposite of the truth

it’s 470 yds - 93% of par 4s on tour are shorter- so I guess they must all be really mediocre tests

plus the fact that it dog legs in the middle of a drive with OB on the left snd river on the right is what forces guys to hit less than driver and thus have more than a Wedge or 9 in - which is what they hit on most 470 yd par 4s on tour

the 190+ plus avg approach distance made the 5th at colonial one of the longest playing par 4s on the tour outside of majors
 
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Wexahu

Full Member
Saying #5 isn’t a good test because the pros can hit a hybrid and 6 is the exact opposite of the truth

it’s 470 yds - 93% of par 4s on tour are shorter- so in guess they must all be really mediocre tests

plus the fact that it dog legs in the middle of a drive with OB on the left snd river on the right is what forces guys to hit less than driver and thus have more than a Wedge or 9 in - which is what they hit on most 470 yd par 4s on tour

the 190+ plus avg approach distance made the 5th at colonial one of the longest playing par 4s on the tour outside of majors

I didn't say it wasn't a good test, or a hard hole. It obviously is because pros basically can't hit driver there (or most of them even 3-wood) unless they want to get really stupid. That's why they approach from 190. But chances are if a TPC course had a 470-yard hole that doglegged at 230 yards and forced guys to hit less than 3-wood off the tee it'd be called a crappy hole, that's just the nature of these arguments. That was my point. Long par 4s that literally force players to lay way back are not well designed holes IMO, whether that design was intentional as in new courses or a result of technology as the case with Colonial.

I can assure you John Bredemus or Perry Maxwell did not design that hole with the idea that the dogleg was going to start 30-50 yards short of where guys drivers land.
 

HFrog12

Full Member
Shady is just too short and tricked up to be considered a great championship course IMO. Pros would never hit more than a wedge into a par 4 out there. Fun to play though no doubt.

Dan Jenkins had about a biggest case of good 'ol day syndrome of any human alive and he loved him some Colonial and Hogan, so he naturally was going to pump up the course as much as possible. #5 is a hybrid off the tee and a 6 or 7-iron these days for the tour guys, just not what it used to be. But I liked the brown river and rail yard part.

Again, Colonial, good course, best in town. Just overrated a bit IMO.

Played Shady just yesterday for the first time in years. I completely agree it wouldn't be a championship course because of the length - pros would be up by the green on a lot of par 4s. Which is why the green complex is pretty challenging. Although they have room to get the tees pretty far back in some places. I did notice some "championship" tee boxes that didn't have markers on them.

All that being said, wow Shady is a fun course and in incredible shape even after the freeze. I am from Houston and would have never known DFW got hit with tons of weather the last few days by looking at the course. There aren't many bad lies on the entire tract. Some of the holes and greens may have a gimmicky feel but I thought it was a ton of fun. Also, love all the topography. Something we don't have a ton of in Houston.

If I had to choose to play Colonial the rest of my life or Shady I am not sure what I would choose. All I know is Shady has a great thing going with the integrity of the golf course and everyone there seemed really proud of it, which they should.
 

flyfishingfrog

Active Member
I didn't say it wasn't a good test, or a hard hole. It obviously is because pros basically can't hit driver there (or most of them even 3-wood) unless they want to get really stupid. That's why they approach from 190. But chances are if a TPC course had a 470-yard hole that doglegged at 230 yards and forced guys to hit less than 3-wood off the tee it'd be called a crappy hole, that's just the nature of these arguments. That was my point. Long par 4s that literally force players to lay way back are not well designed holes IMO, whether that design was intentional as in new courses or a result of technology as the case with Colonial.

I can assure you John Bredemus or Perry Maxwell did not design that hole with the idea that the dogleg was going to start 30-50 yards short of where guys drivers land.
Actually that was exactly the way the hole was designed - the only difference is the tee has been pushed back 70 yds over the years to deal with technology
The dog leg has always been mid ball flight off the drive to force working the ball

only reason players today hit less than driver is because they can’t actually work the ball that well anymore - as demonstrated by the fact that Rory had to hit a 3 wood on 18 last week because he can’t control a draw with his driver- fades only with driver just like the #1 in the world Dustin Johnson

technology in the ball and clubs has made long and straight almost the only option
 

Eight

Member
Actually that was exactly the way the hole was designed - the only difference is the tee has been pushed back 70 yds over the years to deal with technology
The dog leg has always been mid ball flight off the drive to force working the ball

only reason players today hit less than driver is because they can’t actually work the ball that well anymore - as demonstrated by the fact that Rory had to hit a 3 wood on 18 last week because he can’t control a draw with his driver- fades only with driver just like the #1 in the world Dustin Johnson

technology in the ball and clubs has made long and straight almost the only option

fairly sure there are a number of us who are "skilled" enough to hit short and curving off the tee
 

Wexahu

Full Member
Actually that was exactly the way the hole was designed - the only difference is the tee has been pushed back 70 yds over the years to deal with technology
The dog leg has always been mid ball flight off the drive to force working the ball

only reason players today hit less than driver is because they can’t actually work the ball that well anymore - as demonstrated by the fact that Rory had to hit a 3 wood on 18 last week because he can’t control a draw with his driver- fades only with driver just like the #1 in the world Dustin Johnson

technology in the ball and clubs has made long and straight almost the only option

The hole was listed at 469 yards in the 1941 US Open and the course was built in 1936. It's listed at 481 today. So I don't know where you get the "the only difference is the tee has been moved back 70 yards over the years". It was never even close to a 410 yard hole. And thus, the dog leg surely was not mid ball flight, it was actually very close to where drives landed back 40-50 years ago. For sure 75 years ago.

Totally agree on your last sentence. Players can't and don't work the ball much anymore. It's just not a smart way to play with today's equipment, and the modern ball flies too straight anyway.
 
Totally agree on your last sentence. Players can't and don't work the ball much anymore. It's just not a smart way to play with today's equipment, and the modern ball flies too straight anyway.
This is a common misperception that since the ball doesn’t spin as much, they don’t shape it as much. Players are actually more willing to move the ball opposite of their natural shape today than in the past.

Why? Because it doesn’t spin as much, there’s less danger of over-shaping it and losing the shot way right or left. You can swing more aggressively with less fear of a horrible outcome. The difference now is just that the fade or draw is less pronounced.

Anybody who played 10+ years with balata will remember how badly a fade would just balloon up to the right and fall 15 yards short if you didn’t execute it perfectly. That same shot ends up on the green more often than not with today’s balls.
 

Wexahu

Full Member
This is a common misperception that since the ball doesn’t spin as much, they don’t shape it as much. Players are actually more willing to move the ball opposite of their natural shape today than in the past.

Why? Because it doesn’t spin as much, there’s less danger of over-shaping it and losing the shot way right or left. You can swing more aggressively with less fear of a horrible outcome. The difference now is just that the fade or draw is less pronounced.

Anybody who played 10+ years with balata will remember how badly a fade would just balloon up to the right and fall 15 yards short if you didn’t execute it perfectly. That same shot ends up on the green more often than not with today’s balls.

I am amazed how far my wedges and short irons fly into the wind compared to what they did 20 years ago. Into a 15-mile hour wind, it might be a club difference. Back in the day I had to punch shots or make some dead handed half swing just to keep it from ballooning like heck. Now you can just hit normal shots and allow for the wind just a bit. It really does make a huge difference.

A think all the data that has been collected has shown that trying to work the ball is a fool's game. Better off just hitting a stock shot and if you can't "get to a hole" on occasion you should just play away from it, settle for a long putt, and wait for a hole that fits your shot better. What it's shown is a lot of disastrous, way off line shots come from trying to do too much with the ball, and those kill rounds.
 

flyfishingfrog

Active Member
The hole was listed at 469 yards in the 1941 US Open and the course was built in 1936. It's listed at 481 today. So I don't know where you get the "the only difference is the tee has been moved back 70 yards over the years". It was never even close to a 410 yard hole. And thus, the dog leg surely was not mid ball flight, it was actually very close to where drives landed back 40-50 years ago. For sure 75 years ago.

Totally agree on your last sentence. Players can't and don't work the ball much anymore. It's just not a smart way to play with today's equipment, and the modern ball flies too straight anyway.
Well what’s the distance between the golds and blacks. - that is how far the hole has been extended because the two back tees behind 4 green were both added after original design and construction

the current “blue” tees are about where they added a tee for the 1941 open I think - not quite old enough to have even known golf exists in 41 - but even then if you look at the 1941 open book it shows the expect landing area to be after the dog leg thus requiring a fade

you do realize the current fairway is straighter and right of the original? When they moved the driving range to the middle of the ‘shoe they had to move the fairway right and straighten it to make room. Thus the hole became shorter afterward because it didn’t bend as much to the same green
 

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flyfishingfrog

Active Member
This is a common misperception that since the ball doesn’t spin as much, they don’t shape it as much. Players are actually more willing to move the ball opposite of their natural shape today than in the past.

Why? Because it doesn’t spin as much, there’s less danger of over-shaping it and losing the shot way right or left. You can swing more aggressively with less fear of a horrible outcome. The difference now is just that the fade or draw is less pronounced.

Anybody who played 10+ years with balata will remember how badly a fade would just balloon up to the right and fall 15 yards short if you didn’t execute it perfectly. That same shot ends up on the green more often than not with today’s balls.
I think the biggest difference is you can hit a fade as long-‘if not longer- today vs the past where a draw would run out more and end up longer

now you can keep the face open like Hogan did with his wrist and go at it as hard as you want with your turn and not have to worry about flipping it for a pull hook or hitting a ballon slice as you said
 

First Tee Frog

Active Member
I am amazed how far my wedges and short irons fly into the wind compared to what they did 20 years ago. Into a 15-mile hour wind, it might be a club difference. Back in the day I had to punch shots or make some dead handed half swing just to keep it from ballooning like heck. Now you can just hit normal shots and allow for the wind just a bit. It really does make a huge difference.

A think all the data that has been collected has shown that trying to work the ball is a fool's game. Better off just hitting a stock shot and if you can't "get to a hole" on occasion you should just play away from it, settle for a long putt, and wait for a hole that fits your shot better. What it's shown is a lot of disastrous, way off line shots come from trying to do too much with the ball, and those kill rounds.

somebody has been reading his Scott fawcett.
 

Wexahu

Full Member
Well what’s the distance between the golds and blacks. - that is how far the hole has been extended because the two back tees behind 4 green were both added after original design and construction

the current “blue” tees are about where they added a tee for the 1941 open I think - not quite old enough to have even known golf exists in 41 - but even then if you look at the 1941 open book it shows the expect landing area to be after the dog leg thus requiring a fade

you do realize the current fairway is straighter and all right of the original? When they moved the driving range to the middle of the ‘shoe they had to move the fairway right and straighten it to make room. Thus the hole became shorter afterward because it didn’t bend as much to the same green

The Gold tees are officially 432 yards. The Blues are 472. And Championship are 481.

Not really trying to get into a big argument here (even though it seems like it) or say it's some garbage hole, because I don't think it is. But I don't think there's much question the hole was designed to play as a strong drive off the tee and then a good mid-iron (or long-iron really) into the green. Today it is more or less a lay-up off the tee.

I do see that it's a bit straighter but guy's still aren't going to take that slighter dogleg on with a driver. It's less than 40 yards from hazard to trees at 300 yards and it's 10 yards wider 30 yards back. That's just not enough room, not worth the risk. Automatic lay back.
 
I think the biggest difference is you can hit a fade as long-‘if not longer- today vs the past where a draw would run out more and end up longer

now you can keep the face open like Hogan did with his wrist and go at it as hard as you want with your turn and not have to worry about flipping it for a pull hook or hitting a ballon slice as you said
You know what the hell you are talking abt. I like you.
 
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