• The KillerFrogs

FWST: TCU’s offense is so bad, it’s going to force Gary Patterson to find a new coordinator

FrogREI36

New Member
frogs in their lines are as big if not bigger than when they played in the mwc and when you talk about some of the frogs skill players on offense the frogs are bigger than they ever have been.

where the frogs got smaller is at linebacker which was a reaction by patterson to facing the talent in the spread offenses that were common when the frogs joined the big 12.

i do agree that gary needs to go get an offensive staff that can put in an offense he wants run and that isn't sonny's background


The size I was referring to is mostly on defense. Also we might be big at recieve but they are not very good.
 

Mean Purple

Active Member
We need to go away from Cumbie, Meach, and that entire style of offense. IT HAS NEVER WON A CHAMPIONSHIP. Made popular by Oregon always gets tons of hype but never produce a championship because of its in ability to win the close game. Case in point is last week vs Baylor we had the ball on the 1 yard line and because we run this stupid run and gun offense we cannot get under center and go get 1 yard when everyone in the stadium knows that is what we need to do.

Gary Patterson is old school hard nose type of coach and we need that type of offense. Control the clock have a great run game and play action pass from under center. Let the defense rest and they will play much better. Lets go back to the Justin Fuente offense that won us a rose bowl.

Also this offense hurts us in practice and in recruiting. Just look around at the bodies we have on the field we look like a 5A High School football team out there because all we care about is speed. So in the off season we recruit speed and work on speed and we get hurt because we are SMALL! When we played in the MWC we had way bigger player who were fast and MEAN!
Many, including me, have made the point that the air raid cant win a natty.

But we have move towards something different this year. Some more RPO.

We have some physicality problems. Again, S&C.

So what offense can they move to?

I always thought Butch Jones had a great system at cinci. He moved away from that at Tenn. Spent a year as an analyst at Bama. Not sure where he is now, but he has to be an OC candidate for many schools now.

We are not built like a bama or lsu. Heck, bu is more physical now. But folks are warranted to be nervous about the air raid.
 

PO Frog

Active Member
We need to go away from Cumbie, Meach, and that entire style of offense. IT HAS NEVER WON A CHAMPIONSHIP. Made popular by Oregon always gets tons of hype but never produce a championship because of its in ability to win the close game. Case in point is last week vs Baylor we had the ball on the 1 yard line and because we run this stupid run and gun offense we cannot get under center and go get 1 yard when everyone in the stadium knows that is what we need to do.

Gary Patterson is old school hard nose type of coach and we need that type of offense. Control the clock have a great run game and play action pass from under center. Let the defense rest and they will play much better. Lets go back to the Justin Fuente offense that won us a rose bowl.

Also this offense hurts us in practice and in recruiting. Just look around at the bodies we have on the field we look like a 5A High School football team out there because all we care about is speed. So in the off season we recruit speed and work on speed and we get hurt because we are SMALL! When we played in the MWC we had way bigger player who were fast and MEAN!
We don't run a run and gun and every team that has won the NCAA championship since 2013 has run some sort of spread offense. The only ball control style offense to even make the playoffs was that dreadful MSU team that backed into the playoffs in 2015-2016 season and promptly scored 0 points against Bama. Arguably Georgia tries to run more ball control but they still run a spread. And they haven't won the championship.

Are you sure you're not actually Gary Patterson?
 

Wexahu

Full Member
But folks are warranted to be nervous about the air raid.

I think everyone has basically figured out the Air Raid. Three man fronts, flood the intermediate zones with defenders, and just dare teams to run the ball. Running plays are so slow developing and O-lineman need to hold their blocks so long that there's no need to stack the line in any kind of way in order to stop it. Besides, it's not in the DNA of Air Raid coaching staffs to have any willingness to keep running the ball even if it is working.

It's run it's course. I'm not sure we're running it anyway, but that's what our OC supposedly knows best.
 

Eight

Member
The drop off at O line is really telling.

recruiting matters and you just can't stack 4 average to bad classes on top of each other in a place like the offensive line and not expect to see a drop off.

quick review of the 2013-2016 classes is pretty telling:

2013 - hit on 2 of 4
morris (multi-year contributor and on the steelers development roster)
fromayan (transferred out)
tunstill (never contributed)
pryor (mult-year contributor and on the eagles development roster)

2014 - 1 of 4 contributed
barrett - (transferred out)
kee - (transferred out)
griswold - (injury ended career)
elliott - (contributed senior season after fighting injuries most of his career)

2015 - hit on 1, contributions from a second out of 4
awolope - (transferred out)
bolisomi - (contributed senior senior)
milton - (injury ended career)
iwuagwu - (multiple year contributor)

2016 -hit on 1, contributor from a second out of 3
niang - (multiple-year contributor and nfl prospect)
myers - (multiple-year contributor)
hollins - (started most of last year and then has disappeared)

some kids get hurt, some kids don't get better, some kids transfer out, but you just can't go through a stretch like this and it not hurt the performance on the field. no different than what we have seen at defensive end and linebacker
 

Mean Purple

Active Member
I think everyone has basically figured out the Air Raid. Three man fronts, flood the intermediate zones with defenders, and just dare teams to run the ball. Running plays are so slow developing and O-lineman need to hold their blocks so long that there's no need to stack the line in any kind of way in order to stop it. Besides, it's not in the DNA of Air Raid coaching staffs to have any willingness to keep running the ball even if it is working.

It's run it's course. I'm not sure we're running it anyway, but that's what our OC supposedly knows best.
Urban always had an offense that stood test of time with adjustments. Watched him explain it during a tv spot after he left Florida. Holy crap, it was genius. Parts of it offered the benefit of the I formation. Pretty sure it's a style of Veer he ran.

Could quickly adjust off hot routes, etc.
 

Wexahu

Full Member
Urban always had an offense that stood test of time with adjustments. Watched him explain it during a tv spot after he left Florida. Holy crap, it was genius. Parts of it offered the benefit of the I formation. Pretty sure it's a style of Veer he ran.

Could quickly adjust off hot routes, etc.

I'm not a smart enough football person to fully understand how good offenses work but I would suspect these are the kind of things our offense is sorely lacking. You rarely see defenses looking confused before the snap against us, that tells me through film study they pretty much have us figured out. That also shows in how few times we have receivers running open. Virtually any other game you watch involving decent offenses there are a handful of plays where guys somehow get wide open, I gotta think that is through creative route designs and looks given to the defense because I don't think guys get open that easily simply by running good routes.
 

HFrog12

Full Member


In case you ever think that Gil gives a rats ass about TCU either. Never mind that we beat them 3 times in a row in Austin from 2012-2016.


Gil is an LSU guy through and through. I love Gil and his writing but if you speak any ill will towards LSU then you will hear it. He goes LSU against the world pretty quick. He likes to poke the bear just as easily as the next guy. This specific spat was because Danny Kanell said, following the LSU game, the he "Can't wait for all the SEC fans to rip this game for having no defense like they've done to the Big 12 for 20 years." Which isn't really off base. Gil, unsolicited, said he can't wait to see the national media guys still think OU will be a good playoff team. Then following Danny Kanell's tweet he made a strange opinionated comment that we should "rip the Big 12 for having Alabama's second string QB be the QB for an Oklahoma team that would probably finish fourth in the SEC West." Just strange all together. I remember Jalen Hurts being pretty good for Bama. LSU would beat OU but I think they would have a punchers chance vs. Bama (maybe not a great one), and certainly a chance vs. Auburn. Georgia and Florida aren't world beaters. So OU is maybe the 3rd best team in the SEC, following two of the best teams in CFB?

The funny thing is he told the TCU fan to worry about his own team. When after his alma mater won one of the biggest games in recent program history some of his first thoughts are to dog on OU and the big 12? Must be nice to be that butthurt after a win like that.

When your an SEC homer your argument to 61-58 baylor is that B12 has always played no defense and it's not about how good the offenses were. Then at 9-6 LSU vs. Bama it's all about how good the defenses are and not about how gawd awful those offenses were just running straight into the line over and over. Of course now both Baylor/TCU and Bama/ LSU fall on the same weekend and the narrative shift is comical. Do I think TCU/Baylor are on the same level as LSU/Bama? Absolutely not but funny to see the sliding nonetheless.

LSU is the best team in college football. Coach O and staff have the program rolling and it's truly fun to watch. But funny to see the SEC bias just as apparent as ever.
 

Wexahu

Full Member
Gil is an LSU guy through and through. I love Gil and his writing but if you speak any ill will towards LSU then you will hear it. He goes LSU against the world pretty quick. He likes to poke the bear just as easily as the next guy. This specific spat was because Danny Kanell said, following the LSU game, the he "Can't wait for all the SEC fans to rip this game for having no defense like they've done to the Big 12 for 20 years." Which isn't really off base. Gil, unsolicited, said he can't wait to see the national media guys still think OU will be a good playoff team. Then following Danny Kanell's tweet he made a strange opinionated comment that we should "rip the Big 12 for having Alabama's second string QB be the QB for an Oklahoma team that would probably finish fourth in the SEC West." Just strange all together. I remember Jalen Hurts being pretty good for Bama. LSU would beat OU but I think they would have a punchers chance vs. Bama (maybe not a great one), and certainly a chance vs. Auburn. Georgia and Florida aren't world beaters. So OU is maybe the 3rd best team in the SEC, following two of the best teams in CFB?

The funny thing is he told the TCU fan to worry about his own team. When after his alma mater won one of the biggest games in recent program history some of his first thoughts are to dog on OU and the big 12? Must be nice to be that butthurt after a win like that.

When your an SEC homer your argument to 61-58 baylor is that B12 has always played no defense and it's not about how good the offenses were. Then at 9-6 LSU vs. Bama it's all about how good the defenses are and not about how gawd awful those offenses were just running straight into the line over and over. Of course now both Baylor/TCU and Bama/ LSU fall on the same weekend and the narrative shift is comical. Do I think TCU/Baylor are on the same level as LSU/Bama? Absolutely not but funny to see the sliding nonetheless.

LSU is the best team in college football. Coach O and staff have the program rolling and it's truly fun to watch. But funny to see the SEC bias just as apparent as ever.

It's all kind of ridiculous. There are SEC teams that play terrible defense. There are Big 12 teams that play terrible offense (which hits way too close to home). Who cares?

And the defense was pretty terrible in that 61-58 game. How much NFL talent was on those offenses? At least this LSU-Bama game featured maybe the top 2 picks in the NFL at QB and a whole slew of 1st round talent at WR, and possibly even running back. Not to mention what they on the O-line. It;s simply hard to stop offenses like that.
 

HFrog12

Full Member
It's all kind of ridiculous. There are SEC teams that play terrible defense. There are Big 12 teams that play terrible offense (which hits way too close to home). Who cares?

And the defense was pretty terrible in that 61-58 game. How much NFL talent was on those offenses? At least this LSU-Bama game featured maybe the top 2 picks in the NFL at QB and a whole slew of 1st round talent at WR, and possibly even running back. Not to mention what they on the O-line. It;s simply hard to stop offenses like that.

I completely agree. Not trying to argue which one team or the other is better because it is completely obvious that LSU/Bama are on another level right now. I was simply responding to what was brought up about Gil. I am not blaming him, it's his alma mater that is kicking ass. I just still don't support the bias that is out there. Iowa St. kicked our ass. I think they are a pretty good team and Matt Campbell is a good coach. So it did not surprise me that the OU game was close. So when you ask, who cares? Doesn't keep me up at night. I just find it humorous the flip flopping people in the SEC do. When you are up by 12 with 1:28 left all you have to worry about as a defense is not letting them score on one play. Well just like what happened in 61-58, Bama busted it over the top. I don't think LSU has a bad defense, I think it's good, but two players made a great play. Bryce Petty and Boykin were making tremendous plays with their WRs in 61-58. To answer your question on NFL talent, aside from horrific personal issues, both QBs played in the league. KD Cannon, Corey Coleman, Josh Doctson, and Kolby Listenbee were pretty good receivers. To your point - it is hard to stop offenses like that. Side note to that - one thing I love about the SEC is they actually let the kids play a little bit. That 61-58 flagfest was not fun to watch.

I just think the whole conference vs. conference deal is silly. And it constantly get's pressed by the elitism of the SEC. To some extend they have earned it but at least be consistent. Final thought - SEC is clearly better at the top than the B12. Those folks should enjoy it, especially Gil who I really enjoy as a writer and fellow LSU fan.
 

Wexahu

Full Member
Bryce Petty and Boykin were making tremendous plays with their WRs in 61-58. To answer your question on NFL talent, aside from horrific personal issues, both QBs played in the league. KD Cannon, Corey Coleman, Josh Doctson, and Kolby Listenbee were pretty good receivers.

All good college players, but just playing devil's advocate, not trying to be overly argumentative....were they good players because they were playing in uptempo offenses in an offensive-oriented league where quite a few teams kind of played lip service to defense, or were they players that would have been great anywhere. Because by and large, every one of those guys has greatly underwhelmed in the NFL, if they even made a roster.
 

H0RNEDFR0G

Full Member
Not in his last year. The offense for that 6-7 team was a disaster. Period. You have forgotten the Kyle Hicks Wild Frog vs. OSU, the fade to Dez White vs. Tech, the double reverses on short yardage.........I could go on and on.

That horrible offense is the biggest reason why I believe GP soured on the up tempo IMO. Meech left the D out there all year and we got pounded late in the season.

I am all for letting SC go, but we can do better than Meech.

Reasons why our 2014 offense worked:
1) It was new
2) Boykin
3) Doctson
4) Our defense only allowed 19 ppg

Reasons why our offense doesn't work in 2019
1) It's the same offense we ran in 2014
a. Everyone has film on it
b. It's one of the most predictable offenses in the nation.
c. We have barely tweaked it
2) We don't have a Josh Doctson
3) We let up 26 ppg now
 

jack the frog

Full Member
frogs in their lines are as big if not bigger than when they played in the mwc and when you talk about some of the frogs skill players on offense the frogs are bigger than they ever have been.

where the frogs got smaller is at linebacker which was a reaction by patterson to facing the talent in the spread offenses that were common when the frogs joined the big 12.

i do agree that gary needs to go get an offensive staff that can put in an offense he wants run and that isn't sonny's background

Yep. Gary beat the drum constantly regarding size and the need to get bigger when we first entered the Big 12, and we have done that some by way of simply higher ranked classes, but I think he was distracted from that goal some by Briles and those fast Baylor teams. There was no reason to think that was not the future of the Big 12 before Baylor thugged their way into the crapper.
 

H0RNEDFR0G

Full Member
Many, including me, have made the point that the air raid cant win a natty.

But we have move towards something different this year. Some more RPO.

We have some physicality problems. Again, S&C.

So what offense can they move to?

I always thought Butch Jones had a great system at cinci. He moved away from that at Tenn. Spent a year as an analyst at Bama. Not sure where he is now, but he has to be an OC candidate for many schools now.

We are not built like a bama or lsu. Heck, bu is more physical now. But folks are warranted to be nervous about the air raid.

Lets focus on winning some conference championships first. If we win the B12 5 years in a row, like OU is about to this year and then go to the CFP 3 times, then I promise you we can come back and complain about the air raid not winning national championships. Deal?
 

HFrog12

Full Member
All good college players, but just playing devil's advocate, not trying to be overly argumentative....were they good players because they were playing in uptempo offenses in an offensive-oriented league where quite a few teams kind of played lip service to defense, or were they players that would have been great anywhere. Because by and large, every one of those guys has greatly underwhelmed in the NFL, if they even made a roster.

Very fair - cordial debate is productive. To your point, they haven't had great NFL careers. Petty was showing promise even at a hapless Jets team before hurting his MCL. Boykin couldn't get out of his own way with his personal issues. We know the Listenbee story. Doctson can't stay on the field. KD Cannon is a head case. And Coleman has had his own personal issues and a torn ACL this year when some thought he was going to be starting for the Giants. All of that doesn't excuse a lack of NFL production but it hasn't been simply being buried on the depth chart.

Just playing devil's advocate as well, Tua, Burrow, and all of those receivers look poised to be high draft picks but you know as well as I that the NFL is a tough place to make it. Some of the most sure fire guys don't produce. This conversation would honestly be a great look back in about 5 years. I think the LSU/Bama group should be better than the TCU/BU group. My point is there have never been apples to apples to compare. That TCU team could have torched Bama that year for all we know. They did it to Ole Miss land shark defense.

Final thought - I don't think TCU and GP played lip service to defense when they were trying to stop BU. I just think they got crushed by a scheme just as Bama got crushed by LSU's scheme. Difference being, I wouldn't say Bama doesn't play defense like most SEC pundits had said about TCU's 2014 team.
 

FrogREI36

New Member
We don't run a run and gun and every team that has won the NCAA championship since 2013 has run some sort of spread offense. The only ball control style offense to even make the playoffs was that dreadful MSU team that backed into the playoffs in 2015-2016 season and promptly scored 0 points against Bama. Arguably Georgia tries to run more ball control but they still run a spread. And they haven't won the championship.

Are you sure you're not actually Gary Patterson?


There is a difference between the Air Raid which Cumbie played in while at Tech and the spread. Everyone has to have shotgun and be able to thrown the football because of the rules now. But as you will see below the team that plays the best defense and can have long sustainable drives that eat clock wins the national championship every year. I also understand we are not these programs but we if are not trying to win a National Championship what are we trying to do?

2013 National Championship: Alabama VS Notre Dame AJ Macarron was the QB they didnt have a Air Raid offense
2014 Ohio State VS Oregon: QB Cardale Jones Didnt not run air raid ( they had Ezekiel Elliott)
2015 Alabama vs Clemson: QB Jake Coker did not run air raid RB Derrick Henry
2016 Alabama Vs Clemson : Qb Deshaun Watson still get under center in that game.
2017 Alabama Vs Georgia: Both teams get under center and play amazing defense in this on.
2018 Clemson Vs Alabama: Clemson has like 5 first round defensive players they get under center and #1 rated pro style QB in college football.
 
Reasons why our 2014 offense worked:
1) It was new
2) Boykin
3) Doctson
4) Our defense only allowed 19 ppg

Reasons why our offense doesn't work in 2019
1) It's the same offense we ran in 2014
a. Everyone has film on it
b. It's one of the most predictable offenses in the nation.
c. We have barely tweaked it
2) We don't have a Josh Doctson
3) We let up 26 ppg now
Our offense isn’t close to what we ran in 2014/15. We only ran the ball 45% of the time then. Over 55% now. Way fewer fades now. Almost no slants now. Way fewer trick plays now. And maybe my memory is failing, but very little Wild Frog then.

The irony is that they’ve taken out most of the things people bitched about for years (except the Wild Frog) and we are worse for it...
 

PO Frog

Active Member
There is a difference between the Air Raid which Cumbie played in while at Tech and the spread. Everyone has to have shotgun and be able to thrown the football because of the rules now. But as you will see below the team that plays the best defense and can have long sustainable drives that eat clock wins the national championship every year. I also understand we are not these programs but we if are not trying to win a National Championship what are we trying to do?

2013 National Championship: Alabama VS Notre Dame AJ Macarron was the QB they didnt have a Air Raid offense
2014 Ohio State VS Oregon: QB Cardale Jones Didnt not run air raid ( they had Ezekiel Elliott)
2015 Alabama vs Clemson: QB Jake Coker did not run air raid RB Derrick Henry
2016 Alabama Vs Clemson : Qb Deshaun Watson still get under center in that game.
2017 Alabama Vs Georgia: Both teams get under center and play amazing defense in this on.
2018 Clemson Vs Alabama: Clemson has like 5 first round defensive players they get under center and #1 rated pro style QB in college football.
We don’t run an air raid so I don’t know why you keep acting like we do.
 
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