FWST: Colonial, TCU moving closer to expanded partnership to benefit Frog golfers

[TopFrog]

Colonial, TCU moving closer to expanded partnership to benefit Frog golfers​

Matthew Adams

After years of cooperation between Colonial Country Club and TCU, the university and the club are close to formalizing a partnership that would give Horned Frog golfers access to upgraded practice grounds and a forthcoming performance center.

Jeremiah Donati, TCU’s former director of intercollegiate athletics and the current athletic director at the University of South Carolina, referenced the expanded relationship in 2023, saying it would “enhance the student-athlete experience.”

Read the rest at https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/article306923216.html

Read the complete story at https://sports.yahoo.com/article/colonial-tcu-moving-closer-expanded-215948079.html

 

[FrogBall09]

my understanding is once the new building is completed- and that is getting close - then this is one of the next round of projects which seems to fit with the announcement this summer of the latest evolution of the partnership. Probably good to have had a little time since it has given Colonial two PGA events and a year of club usage of the "new" Driving Range/Practice area to see what is working, what is not and how members and pros are using the area differently.

 

[JogginFrog]

my understanding is once the new building is completed- and that is getting close - then this is one of the next round of projects which seems to fit with the announcement this summer of the latest evolution of the partnership. Probably good to have had a little time since it has given Colonial two PGA events and a year of club usage of the "new" Driving Range/Practice area to see what is working, what is not and how members and pros are using the area differently.

I guess it's good for members and Tour pros, but from a TCU golf perspective, it looks like Allcorn and Buck have lost two full years of being able to use the performance center as a recruiting tool. I'm not an insider, but I think they took the gig with the expectation that they would be hosting recruits there this summer/fall, not in 2027.

 

[FrogBall09]

I guess it's good for members and Tour pros, but from a TCU golf perspective, it looks like Allcorn and Buck have lost two full years of being able to use the performance center as a recruiting tool. I'm not an insider, but I think they took the gig with the expectation that they would be hosting recruits there this summer/fall, not in 2027.

maybe - but if that is what is holding us back then we are probably in trouble - its not like they are getting an entirely new course and they have access to all the facilities currently, they just don't have a locker room. I doubt the next Spieth is suddenly changing their mind and coming to TCU because of this center when they were not willing to come before.

as far as how long its taken - lifes a [ hundin]. The club is spending over $100 million of members money and TCU committed a pittance of that to build a building that frankly the club does not need other than to help TCU and I am guessing our members will not have as much access to as was originally presented.

A new course would have cost TCU $100million plus alone - so they got the deal of a lifetime to access our newly redesigned course and brand new facilities.

However that wasn't my point - my point was I am guessing we are going to change what will be built somewhat based on several things that have been learned about how the new practice area is being utilized by both groups of golfers since the TCU teams practice more like the pros but the facility layout and design was more like something you would build for members to use for lessons or to hit balls in during a weather event

 

[Wexahu]

maybe - but if that is what is holding us back then we are probably in trouble - its not like they are getting an entirely new course and they have access to all the facilities currently, they just don't have a locker room. I doubt the next Spieth is suddenly changing their mind and coming to TCU because of this center when they were not willing to come before.

as far as how long its taken - lifes a [ hundin]. The club is spending over $100 million of members money and TCU committed a pittance of that to build a building that frankly the club does not need other than to help TCU and I am guessing our members will not have as much access to as was originally presented.

A new course would have cost TCU $100million plus alone - so they got the deal of a lifetime to access our newly redesigned course and brand new facilities.

However that wasn't my point - my point was I am guessing we are going to change what will be built somewhat based on several things that have been learned about how the new practice area is being utilized by both groups of golfers since the TCU teams practice more like the pros but the facility layout and design was more like something you would build for members to use for lessons or to hit balls in during a weather event

$100M?

Good grief. I'd feel embarrassed for the members but based on prior posts it's probably something that is bragged about. If $100M was spent on what was done out there, something went horribly wrong.

 

[JetFlyingFrog]

never gonna keep up unless we start spending like the sec:

Alabama Intercollegiate Athletics Golf Facility - Building Bama | The University of Alabama

UA Capital Projects Portal

buildingbama.ua.edu

shoot, our tennis complex was the finest in the country 15 years ago and now is in desperate need of a renovation, but not on the short list. same with baseball.

oil taps have been tapped.

 

[FrogBall09]

$100M?

Good grief. I'd feel embarrassed for the members but based on prior posts it's probably something that is bragged about. If $100M was spent on what was done out there, something went horribly wrong.

its $100 mm on the entire redo - which includes building an entirely new 4 level wing of the clubhouse and then redoing the rest of the existing clubhouse plus the course, practice facility, midway, lesson studio, bathrooms, break stations, etc. - the only building not being majorly touched is the swimming building that was built new a couple years ago when we built the new pool

If you think that is a lot of money - guessing you don't know crap about capital project or commercial construction

And the course is freaking amazing - a year after opening, its better than expected honestly and outside of one par 3 at Shady - there is no comparison that Colonial spent the money on the better redesign.

 

[JogginFrog]

maybe - but if that is what is holding us back then we are probably in trouble - its not like they are getting an entirely new course and they have access to all the facilities currently, they just don't have a locker room. I doubt the next Spieth is suddenly changing their mind and coming to TCU because of this center when they were not willing to come before.

as far as how long its taken - lifes a [ hundin]. The club is spending over $100 million of members money and TCU committed a pittance of that to build a building that frankly the club does not need other than to help TCU and I am guessing our members will not have as much access to as was originally presented.

A new course would have cost TCU $100million plus alone - so they got the deal of a lifetime to access our newly redesigned course and brand new facilities.

However that wasn't my point - my point was I am guessing we are going to change what will be built somewhat based on several things that have been learned about how the new practice area is being utilized by both groups of golfers since the TCU teams practice more like the pros but the facility layout and design was more like something you would build for members to use for lessons or to hit balls in during a weather event

I accept the point that the facility will be better having learned how the pros are using the new practice area. Thanks for the investment you and the other members are making in TCU golf.

I don't expect TCU's recruiting to jump into the stratosphere based on the facility--it's life support for a program up against an arms race in college golf that is impossible to justify without donor support.

Thanks again for that support.

I get that the surgeon would prefer the patient be thankful for his life-saving help instead of complaining about the speed of service, but it seems like Colonial agreed to operate on TCU golf, gave a specific timeline for facility completion (which helped sell the coaches), then left the patient on the table with an open chest cavity for years while attending to the north clubhouse.

Or maybe TCU jumped the gun in communicating. The article refers to Colonial's master facility plan that has been in place for three years, and says a new formal partnership with TCU will be announced this summer. But Donati announced a formal partnership in 2023 that indicated the facility was scheduled to open in summer 2024. So, if the new timeline is 2027, something changed. And I feel bad for two coaches on a fast track to success who opted for a tough project based on those promises.

(And for the record, I don't know the coaches.)

 

[Wexahu]

its $100 mm on the entire redo - which includes building an entirely new 4 level wing of the clubhouse and then redoing the rest of the existing clubhouse plus the course, practice facility, midway, lesson studio, bathrooms, break stations, etc. - the only building not being majorly touched is the swimming building that was built new a couple years ago when we built the new pool

If you think that is a lot of money - guessing you don't know crap about capital project or commercial construction

And the course is freaking amazing - a year after opening, its better than expected honestly and outside of one par 3 at Shady - there is no comparison that Colonial spent the money on the better redesign.

It IS a lot of money. I have an idea of what things cost, I am in the commercial development business. Construction costs have skyrocketed since 2020, I realize that, but what was done out there should not have cost $100M. There is a high-end club here in Dallas that scraped and rebuilt its entire clubhouse and is doing a total renovation of the golf course (which will also require a year-long shutdown) and I think the price tag on that is about $60M. I suppose when you get some big $ people with huge egos together that are trying to show off, spending can get out of control. A big portion of the membership probably wanted to outspend their peers as a way to feed their ego, that not a good recipe for financial restraint.

In any event, if TCU would want to build it's own very nice golf course/club, they wouldn't need $100M, unless the land they were trying to build it on cost at least half that. Or unless they were just trying to spend money, because TCU.

As for it being "freaking amazing", that's subjective. It's very nice. But it was before too. I think visually it's not as attractive and I think they could have done WAY better on a few holes (9 and 13 in particular, and probably 8 too. 8 is "better", but not near as good as it could have been), but that is just my opinion.

 

[FrogBall09]

I accept the point that the facility will be better having learned how the pros are using the new practice area. Thanks for the investment you and the other members are making in TCU golf.

I don't expect TCU's recruiting to jump into the stratosphere based on the facility--it's life support for a program up against an arms race in college golf that is impossible to justify without donor support.

Thanks again for that support.

I get that the surgeon would prefer the patient be thankful for his life-saving help instead of complaining about the speed of service, but it seems like Colonial agreed to operate on TCU golf, gave a specific timeline for facility completion (which helped sell the coaches), then left the patient on the table with an open chest cavity for years while attending to the north clubhouse.

Or maybe TCU jumped the gun in communicating. The article refers to Colonial's master facility plan that has been in place for three years, and says a new formal partnership with TCU will be announced this summer. But Donati announced a formal partnership in 2023 that indicated the facility was scheduled to open in summer 2024. So, if the new timeline is 2027, something changed. And I feel bad for two coaches on a fast track to success who opted for a tough project based on those promises.

(And for the record, I don't know the coaches.)

ummm - neither of those guys came to TCU because they were promised a training/practice/locker room for the team at Colonial - and fast track is a relative term evidently. Great guys but Bill had never been a head coach before and we gave him a chance for his first HC job ever to be at a P4 D1.

Here is a hint if you have not figured it out about our former AD - if he was talking, he was lying. I could look back at the 3 year plan but there was nothing ever on it for 2024 beyond the actual golf course, driving range turf and the bathrooms because Colonial didn't have time for all of that honestly but it was the minimum needed for the tournament last year.

 

[FrogBall09]

It IS a lot of money. I have an idea of what things cost, I am in the commercial development business. Construction costs have skyrocketed since 2020, I realize that, but what was done out there should not have cost $100M. There is a high-end club here in Dallas that scraped and rebuilt its entire clubhouse and is doing a total renovation of the golf course (which will also require a year-long shutdown) and I think the price tag on that is about $60M. I suppose when you get some big $ people with huge egos together that are trying to show off, spending can get out of control. A big portion of the membership probably wanted to outspend their peers as a way to feed their ego, that not a good recipe for financial restraint.

In any event, if TCU would want to build it's own very nice golf course/club, they wouldn't need $100M, unless the land they were trying to build it on cost at least half that. Or unless they were just trying to spend money, because TCU.

As for it being "freaking amazing", that's subjective. It's very nice. But it was before too. I think visually it's not as attractive and I think they could have done WAY better on a few holes (9 and 13 in particular, and probably 8 too. 8 is "better", but not near as good as it could have been), but that is just my opinion.

I am sure your 18+ handicap knows more than Gil Hanse - what a joke.

And on renovation costs for clubs around DFW - [ deposit from a bull that looks like Art Briles ]. I sit on the capital committee now and we have met with the GM of every private club within 100 miles of DFW that have completed or currently doing a renovation.

No one on that list is redoing their entire course and tearing down their clubhouse to build a new one for $60 million budget.

Dallas National has $30mm budget for just the course and has already told members to expect potentially more.

Vaquero also spent about $30MM, didn't really touch the golf course but got a solid upgrade to their practice facility, a club house extension about half the size of Colonials and a new dining room in the existing clubhouse.

Lakewood has a $45mm budget just for their course and practice area plus related buildings - no clubhouse work is in that number.

Northwood already dropped over $30mm in the last several years on their course and has approved a number close to twice that just for the clubhouse and facilities renovation portion - so basically they are spending the same as Colonial.

DCC spent more $60mm on a course with the smallest footprint in the state and only redid interiors and hardscape on most buildings. Like Rivercrest - they do the best they can with a what they have but it will never be great because its simply too small.

Canyon Creek budgeted less than $60mm but will end up more than that for their entire program once completed and comparing what they will end up with to Colonial would be a good laugh - its better than Brookhaven but not much.

Craig Ranch budgeted $15 mm for just their course last year after the initial discussion with Lanny - and is now estimating closer to $25 mm to actually make the changes the PGAT is telling them will be needed to keep the Nelson - and they don't even have a first design completed for the clubhouse so have nothing but a placeholder budget as of last month. It won't be below $35 mm to do their clubhouse and other facilities even if they don't tear it down.

Brookhaven spent less - but then they did exactly the kind of renovation you get with an Invited Clubs owned facility since the Dedman's sold off Club Corp but kept Pinehurst - lot of new paint and carpet for their 3k golf members.

So exactly which "high-end" club is only spending $60mm to redo their entire course and build a brand new clubhouse again?

as for building a new course - It would easily cost $100mm to build a new golf course and clubhouse today assuming it was to be anywhere within 20 miles of campus and you want one to actually attract visitors to play with more than a construction trailer for a clubhouse. Most new courses under development from scratch have larger budgets that not including the land acquisition and the JJ/Tiger combo is 3x already but its over the top. TCU blew it when we didn't join forces with the city of Ft Worth on Rockwood - that was the best shot unless the city decides to sell one of the PV courses at a later date.

 

[Wexahu]

I am sure your 18+ handicap knows more than Gil Hanse - what a joke.

And on renovation costs for clubs around DFW - [ deposit from a bull that looks like Art Briles ]. I sit on the capital committee now and we have met with the GM of every private club within 100 miles of DFW that have completed or currently doing a renovation.

No one on that list is redoing their entire course and tearing down their clubhouse to build a new one for $60 million budget.

Dallas National has $30mm budget for just the course and has already told members to expect potentially more.

Vaquero also spent about $30MM, didn't really touch the golf course but got a solid upgrade to their practice facility, a club house extension about half the size of Colonials and a new dining room in the existing clubhouse.

Lakewood has a $45mm budget just for their course and practice area plus related buildings - no clubhouse work is in that number.

Northwood already dropped over $30mm in the last several years on their course and has approved a number close to twice that just for the clubhouse and facilities renovation portion - so basically they are spending the same as Colonial.

DCC spent more $60mm on a course with the smallest footprint in the state and only redid interiors and hardscape on most buildings. Like Rivercrest - they do the best they can with a what they have but it will never be great because its simply too small.

Canyon Creek budgeted less than $60mm but will end up more than that for their entire program once completed and comparing what they will end up with to Colonial would be a good laugh - its better than Brookhaven but not much.

Craig Ranch budgeted $15 mm for just their course last year after the initial discussion with Lanny - and is now estimating closer to $25 mm to actually make the changes the PGAT is telling them will be needed to keep the Nelson - and they don't even have a first design completed for the clubhouse so have nothing but a placeholder budget as of last month. It won't be below $35 mm to do their clubhouse and other facilities even if they don't tear it down.

Brookhaven spent less - but then they did exactly the kind of renovation you get with an Invited Clubs owned facility since the Dedman's sold off Club Corp but kept Pinehurst - lot of new paint and carpet for their 3k golf members.

So exactly which "high-end" club is only spending $60mm to redo their entire course and build a brand new clubhouse again?

as for building a new course - It would easily cost $100mm to build a new golf course and clubhouse today assuming it was to be anywhere within 20 miles of campus and you want one to actually attract visitors to play with more than a construction trailer for a clubhouse. Most new courses under development from scratch have larger budgets that not including the land acquisition and the JJ/Tiger combo is 3x already but its over the top. TCU blew it when we didn't join forces with the city of Ft Worth on Rockwood - that was the best shot unless the city decides to sell one of the PV courses at a later date.

I don't know more than Gil Hanse about building a golf course. And designs are all subjective, not a huge fan of Hanse designs. Same with Crenshaw/Coore, although I know some people love them. To each his own, no big deal.

While I'm no superstar player or anything, I have played in several US Amateurs (the actual tournament, not just qualifying) and some other tournaments around the country you may have heard of. Probably would compete fairly well with most of those those 19th-holers at Colonial, probably would have to give a few strokes a side to most I would imagine. And while I don't consider myself an expert in the game, I'm pretty sure I could hold my own talking golf with you.

 

[FroggleRock]

I don't know more than Gil Hanse about building a golf course. And designs are all subjective, not a huge fan of Hanse designs. Same with Crenshaw/Coore, although I know some people love them. To each his own, no big deal.

While I'm no superstar player or anything, I have played in several US Amateurs (the actual tournament, not just qualifying) and some other tournaments around the country you may have heard of. Probably would compete fairly well with most of those those 19th-holers at Colonial, probably would have to give a few strokes a side to most I would imagine. And while I don't consider myself an expert in the game, I'm pretty sure I could hold my own talking golf with you.

Hanse’s designs are basically: “let’s make the course the way it was before improvements were made.”

 

[gohornedfrogs]

And the course is freaking amazing - a year after opening, its better than expected honestly and outside of one par 3 at Shady - there is no comparison that Colonial spent the money on the better redesign.

I'll disagree slightly here. The changes at Shady were very evident, and improved the course quite a lot. I don't really like what they did with #4, but that's just me. The rest was a huge upgrade.

The changes at Colonial are a lot more subtle, in my opinion, and it's a toss-up whether #13 was an improvement, or not. I know you're proud of your course, and you should be. It's a fabulous place. It's still better than Shady Oaks, but Shady got more out of the redesign.

 

[JetFlyingFrog]

Here is a hint if you have not figured it out about our former AD - if he was talking, he was lying.

this is so unfortunately true. the damage he did is near irreparable.

 

[TCUdirtbag]

maybe - but if that is what is holding us back then we are probably in trouble - its not like they are getting an entirely new course and they have access to all the facilities currently, they just don't have a locker room. I doubt the next Spieth is suddenly changing their mind and coming to TCU because of this center when they were not willing to come before.

as far as how long its taken - lifes a [ hundin]. The club is spending over $100 million of members money and TCU committed a pittance of that to build a building that frankly the club does not need other than to help TCU and I am guessing our members will not have as much access to as was originally presented.

A new course would have cost TCU $100million plus alone - so they got the deal of a lifetime to access our newly redesigned course and brand new facilities.

However that wasn't my point - my point was I am guessing we are going to change what will be built somewhat based on several things that have been learned about how the new practice area is being utilized by both groups of golfers since the TCU teams practice more like the pros but the facility layout and design was more like something you would build for members to use for lessons or to hit balls in during a weather event

Hi there, entitled Colonial prick.

 

[FrogBall09]

Hi there, entitled Colonial prick.

blow me bud - you want to divide 65% of $100 million by 550 full golf members to understand the assessment we are each paying - and let me know how much entitlement I am allowed to have about "my club" that TCU offered about 1/3 of the cost for a building to not only get the building - but pretty unlimited access for their golf teams?

There literally is no one that bleeds more purple than I do - I could not care less if that facility ever gets built - TCU has had multiple chances to make a difference in Ft Worth related to golf and stepped on our member at every turn including what they were offered at originally in partnership with Colonial but Donati acted like it was insulting. So the school will get what it gets at this point.

 

[BrewingFrog]

Hi there, entitled Colonial prick.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Mean Purple]

its $100 mm on the entire redo - which includes building an entirely new 4 level wing of the clubhouse and then redoing the rest of the existing clubhouse plus the course, practice facility, midway, lesson studio, bathrooms, break stations, etc. - the only building not being majorly touched is the swimming building that was built new a couple years ago when we built the new pool

If you think that is a lot of money - guessing you don't know crap about capital project or commercial construction

And the course is freaking amazing - a year after opening, its better than expected honestly and outside of one par 3 at Shady - there is no comparison that Colonial spent the money on the better redesign.

The excavation for the new building area alone was huge.

However, can someone explain where the TCU facility would go? Is it the opposite end of the range from 4?

Because hard to imagine enough space near the range.

 

[gohornedfrogs]

blow me bud - you want to divide 65% of $100 million by 550 full golf members to understand the assessment we are each paying - and let me know how much entitlement I am allowed to have about "my club" that TCU offered about 1/3 of the cost for a building to not only get the building - but pretty unlimited access for their golf teams?

There literally is no one that bleeds more purple than I do - I could not care less if that facility ever gets built - TCU has had multiple chances to make a difference in Ft Worth related to golf and stepped on our member at every turn including what they were offered at originally in partnership with Colonial but Donati acted like it was insulting. So the school will get what it gets at this point.

So each member is paying nearly $120,000 in assessments? Over how many years?

Forgive me here, but this seems like a really bad deal, and one I find hard to believe 550 members would accept without quite a bit of attrition. Maybe they will, and it's just me who doesn't know anything.

I've been in the Northeast for several decades now, so maybe I'm out of touch with the Texas country club scene. But from what you described is going on at all those area clubs, it sounds insane to me. We don't spend that kind of money at the elite "blue blood" courses here -- ones that host US Opens.

The other nugget you dropped also blows my mind...Colonial has 550 full golf members? How do you ever get to play the course?