• The KillerFrogs

COVID-19 Threads

AroundWorldFrog

Full Member
The Answer: Never, outside of about a week or two in the NYC area, was the risk sufficient to give up any liberties.
I do want to point out that you are saying the public health risk was sufficient to give up liberties at that point, so liberty is not absolute. Essentially we are talking about a set of scales with Covid risk on one side versus public health interventions that give up some liberty on the other- it's a relative comparison. So to me someone who has direct experience with Covid- maybe a loved one suffered in the hospital for a month, maybe you work in the hospital taking care of Covid patients, maybe a nursing home- is going to have a different perspective than someone not directly affected. For those directly affected, the Covid side of the scales is going to have more weight. For the others, severe covid is more abstract, maybe even fabricated in their minds. For them the liberty side of the scale is going to carry a lot more weight.
 

HFrog1999

Member
What is "made right" in your mind? What do you want to happen to the 59% of Democrats, 21% of Republicans and 29% of independents who were so concerned about Covid that they thought that aggressive measures were indicated?

I want the people who lost their businesses, jobs, retirements, freedom, etc to be fairly compensated for their losses.

I lost about $70,000.

Many people lost a lot more.
 

Wexahu

Full Member
I do want to point out that you are saying the public health risk was sufficient to give up liberties at that point, so liberty is not absolute. Essentially we are talking about a set of scales with Covid risk on one side versus public health interventions that give up some liberty on the other- it's a relative comparison. So to me someone who has direct experience with Covid- maybe a loved one suffered in the hospital for a month, maybe you work in the hospital taking care of Covid patients, maybe a nursing home- is going to have a different perspective than someone not directly affected. For those directly affected, the Covid side of the scales is going to have more weight. For the others, severe covid is more abstract, maybe even fabricated in their minds. For them the liberty side of the scale is going to carry a lot more weight.
I still maintain if COVID had happened 100 years ago we wouldn't have even known it was happening. Some more people were getting sick, but not so many more than anyone would have noticed. And frankly, what we were doing wasn't making much of a difference at all anyway, it was 95% political theatre.

I know what you're going to say to this, but to be totally honest, I don't believe most of it. I had heard enough from people to know that there were a lot of embellishments out there.
 

Zubaz

Member
I still maintain if COVID had happened 100 years ago we wouldn't have even known it was happening. Some more people were getting sick, but not so many more than anyone would have noticed. And frankly, what we were doing wasn't making much of a difference at all anyway, it was 95% political theatre.

I know what you're going to say to this, but to be totally honest, I don't believe most of it. I had heard enough from people to know that there were a lot of embellishments out there.
I honestly don't know how you can believe that when 100 years ago this did happen, and we absolutely noticed it despite a global war going on and far less ability to communicate worldwide.

If your position is that virus is gonna virus and no amount of deaths would justify intervention, then I might disagree but that's an ideological take. To say that we wouldn't have noticed a six figure death toll though?
 
I still maintain if COVID had happened 100 years ago we wouldn't have even known it was happening. Some more people were getting sick, but not so many more than anyone would have noticed. And frankly, what we were doing wasn't making much of a difference at all anyway, it was 95% political theatre.

I know what you're going to say to this, but to be totally honest, I don't believe most of it. I had heard enough from people to know that there were a lot of embellishments out there.
Yeah, I don't think you have the right perspective on this one. The waves were unlike anything anyone has ever seen. Capacities exceeded, resources dried up, supply chains disrupted. It was crazy. But since the omicron wave it has not been overwhelming (even though RSV and influenza is pretty bad right now) , which is why I consider that the end of the pandemic phase. Since that point I do think your perspective is accurate. Hospitals are super busy, but it's fairly easily managed right now.
 

HFrog1999

Member
I still maintain if COVID had happened 100 years ago we wouldn't have even known it was happening. Some more people were getting sick, but not so many more than anyone would have noticed. And frankly, what we were doing wasn't making much of a difference at all anyway, it was 95% political theatre.

I know what you're going to say to this, but to be totally honest, I don't believe most of it. I had heard enough from people to know that there were a lot of embellishments out there.

I still don’t personally know anyone who died from Covid.

Knock Knock Good Luck GIF by StickerGiant
 

Wexahu

Full Member
I honestly don't know how you can believe that when 100 years ago this did happen, and we absolutely noticed it despite a global war going on and far less ability to communicate worldwide.

If your position is that virus is gonna virus and no amount of deaths would justify intervention, then I might disagree but that's an ideological take. To say that we wouldn't have noticed a six figure death toll though?
I assume you're talking the Spanish Flu?

A conservative estimate is that about 17 million people died worldwide (some estimates are over 50 million) and the world population was about 25% what it is today. About 6 million people have died from COVID, so adjusting for population and using conservative estimates about 11x more people died from the Spanish Flu.

IN the US about 675,000 died and the population was about 1/3 that it is today, so adjusting for that about 2x the people died from Spanish Flu.

Here's the kicker though.....95% of the deaths were in people under 65 (and I realize people didn't live as long then) and almost half the deaths were in people 20-40. It mostly killed young adults. An entirely different situation. And yet, when most history books talk about that period in history, in particular the time between 1900 and World War II, I'd say the Great Depression gets 50x more mentions than the Spanish Flu.

So yeah, not comparable at all IMO. I don't think we'd have noticed much at all if a higher than usual number of mostly all elderly people were getting sick and passing away a year or a few years earlier than anticipated.
 

Wexahu

Full Member
Yeah, I don't think you have the right perspective on this one. The waves were unlike anything anyone has ever seen. Capacities exceeded, resources dried up, supply chains disrupted. It was crazy. But since the omicron wave it has not been overwhelming (even though RSV and influenza is pretty bad right now) , which is why I consider that the end of the pandemic phase. Since that point I do think your perspective is accurate. Hospitals are super busy, but it's fairly easily managed right now.
The resources and supply chains were scheissed up because people weren't allowed to live normally, or were scared into thinking living normally wasn't safe. Lack of resources and jacked up supply chains were self inflicted deals.
 

froginmn

Full Member
For starters? What then?
Then, stop pretending that getting vaccinated protects others. It was clear in mid 2021 that herd immunity was impossible because of the lack of durable immunity.

Another myth dispelled was that unvaccinated people are more contagious.

Yet we've ignored the science and Fauci and others to this day say that people should get vaccinated to protect others. That should be loudly shouted down.
 

Zubaz

Member
I assume you're talking the Spanish Flu?

A conservative estimate is that about 17 million people died worldwide (some estimates are over 50 million) and the world population was about 25% what it is today. About 6 million people have died from COVID, so adjusting for population and using conservative estimates about 11x more people died from the Spanish Flu.

IN the US about 675,000 died and the population was about 1/3 that it is today, so adjusting for that about 2x the people died from Spanish Flu.

Here's the kicker though.....95% of the deaths were in people under 65 (and I realize people didn't live as long then) and almost half the deaths were in people 20-40. It mostly killed young adults. An entirely different situation.
Are you suggesting that if the Spanish Flu was 50% as bad, nobody would have noticed? I'm still struggling how you jump from "It wasn't quite as bad as the Spanish flu" (agree), to "We wouldn't have even known it was happening" (definitely disagree).

And you're right that the demos of the Spanish Flu were different on the whole, but to suggest that we just wouldn't have noticed half a million excess deaths in 12 months? Not sure how you can say that. Even if you exclude every COVID death over 65, you're still left with 250,000 deaths. We wouldn't notice that? Take it a step further and look at only under 50, and you're still looking at a death toll bigger than any flu season (across all ages) since at least 1990. I think it's a stretch to say that wouldn't have been noticed in any time period.

And yet, when most history books talk about that period in history, in particular the time between 1900 and World War II, I'd say the Great Depression gets 50x more mentions than the Spanish Flu.
Do you think it's reasonable to compare coverage in history books between a pandemic and an geopolitical catastrophe (which was influenced in part by the Spanish Flu, you leave out) that shaped world history for the next 75 years?
 
Then, stop pretending that getting vaccinated protects others. It was clear in mid 2021 that herd immunity was impossible because of the lack of durable immunity.

Another myth dispelled was that unvaccinated people are more contagious.

Yet we've ignored the science and Fauci and others to this day say that people should get vaccinated to protect others. That should be loudly shouted down.
Yeah I think that has definitely been shown to be true. I do think the debate was different in the pre-omicron phase of the disease, but since omicron there isn't much argument that vaccination helps protect others.
 

HFrog1999

Member
I knew a lot of people who got Covid.

They told me it was either no big deal or like a bad flu.

Yeah, our local hospital was full. However it gets full during flu season.

It was full when I nearly died from the Flu, in 2008.
 

HFrog1999

Member
Yeah I think that has definitely been shown to be true. I do think the debate was different in the pre-omicron phase of the disease, but since omicron there isn't much argument that vaccination helps protect others.

Yet people lost their careers for not getting the vaccine. People are still getting dishonorable discharges for not getting vaccinated.
 
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