• The KillerFrogs

Colonial. June.11-14??

MTfrog5

Active Member
wont need Marshalls or anyone else meant to deal with the public.

guessing beyond the official scorer and shotlink person - there won't be many volunteers actually on the course.

Range staff, cart staff and tournament operations can be done with all existing club employees and the members that run those committees

score related volunteers are probably the only real volunteers that will be needed

If you look at how the Nike Collegiate tournament is run - it will be basically the same thing.

Won't be surprised if they try and find members to do all of that actually just to limit logistical issues.
I volunteer
 

Dogfrog

Active Member
well I missed the first in person presentation due to another commitment and then they had to cancel the last one because of everything going on

But supposedly he is focused on trying to bring back the design philosophy that the course originally had but in a modern equipment world.

You have to be an old man like me to remember some of the early designs we lost - but the most obvious is #8 that used to run almost 90 degrees from the current direction with the green down by the creek. All that was lost when the river authority forced the tee to move and so they moved the green also. Plus the creek has become a trash collector more than a moving water way.

#3 would be changed back to more how it was before the three bunkers were placed inside the dog leg and we lost the protective tree through the fairway

#4 would be adjusted to allow a run up shot to occur again.

#5 I thought I heard they were talking about opening the right side up a little so you could see the river

Lots of other things on the back 9.

My guess is it will be 200 small things that all add up to not feeling like major changes aesthetically but make some big differences in how you play shots off the tee.

The biggest area of interest to me is the vast differences in green complexes that currently exist. Beyond the argument over what "grass" to use is also the fact that Colonial has about 13 really flat greens and about 5 with tiering.

The discussions I have been involved with always wondered if some of the greens were designed by Maxwell and others by Bredemus based on the other courses those two designed independently of each other. Or if Mr Leonard has some say given what he did at Shady Oaks on the front nine when he built it in the 50's.

My folks got swamped in the 1949 flood and it was my understanding that when they did some rerouting of the Trinity some major changes were done to the course at that time. Don’t remember what year they did that but remember some holes, notably 13 and others were changed considerably. Of course it will never happen but if the PGA allowed rough to be grown to Open lengths, the course would be SOB.
 

MTfrog5

Active Member
My folks got swamped in the 1949 flood and it was my understanding that when they did some rerouting of the Trinity some major changes were done to the course at that time. Don’t remember what year they did that but remember some holes, notably 13 and others were changed considerably. Of course it will never happen but if the PGA allowed rough to be grown to Open lengths, the course would be SOB.
I’ve always wanted the USGA to get a hold of it for a US Open. Place would be stupid
 

Dogfrog

Active Member
I’ve always wanted the USGA to get a hold of it for a US Open. Place would be stupid

yea, if today’s players were forced to stay in the fairways it would play so much tougher. That can be said for any course but especially one as tight as this one. Today they can just bomb it beyond the fairway into easy rough so little to no reward for remaining in the fairway, which means shaping it perfectly on most shots.
 

Limp Lizard

Full Member
My folks got swamped in the 1949 flood and it was my understanding that when they did some rerouting of the Trinity some major changes were done to the course at that time. Don’t remember what year they did that but remember some holes, notably 13 and others were changed considerably. Of course it will never happen but if the PGA allowed rough to be grown to Open lengths, the course would be SOB.
That rerouting happened in the 60's, I think. I remember because I did not like what they did to #13. I saw my first Colonial in '64, iirc. I think the changes were made sometime during my undergrad years at TCU.

The change was after James Garner played in the Pro-Am. I remember attending a practice round the first time Garner saw #13: He said "You gotta be kidding me!" 13 was a really scary-looking hole well over 200 yards over a "canyon." Number 7 was changed, too, but I don't remember how. BTW, Garner was a very good player, around a scratch handicap shot his age at 68 when he posted a 67..
 

Dogfrog

Active Member
That rerouting happened in the 60's, I think. I remember because I did not like what they did to #13. I saw my first Colonial in '64, iirc. I think the changes were made sometime during my undergrad years at TCU.

The change was after James Garner played in the Pro-Am. I remember attending a practice round the first time Garner saw #13: He said "You gotta be kidding me!" 13 was a really scary-looking hole well over 200 yards over a "canyon." Number 7 was changed, too, but I don't remember how. BTW, Garner was a very good player, around a scratch handicap shot his age at 68 when he posted a 67..

that’s the timing I figured because I remembered seeing 13 as a kid and remembered it as you describe, nothing like I had ever seen at Sycamore.
 

flyfishingfrog

Active Member
yea, if today’s players were forced to stay in the fairways it would play so much tougher. That can be said for any course but especially one as tight as this one. Today they can just bomb it beyond the fairway into easy rough so little to no reward for remaining in the fairway, which means shaping it perfectly on most shots.
Furyk told me one time it played harder when the course was “browner” like when he first made the tour because your ball would run right through the fairway into the trees if you didn’t hit an arrow down the middle

he said the green fairways are pretty but they make the course easier
 
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froggolf65

Active Member
Colonial is one of the best layouts tee to green in America and changing any of it would be a shame. They need bermuda greens with a few changes to putting surfaces to accommodate firmer conditions but current layout with firm Bermuda greens would see 5-10 under par winning the tournament most years.
 

flyfishingfrog

Active Member
Colonial is one of the best layouts tee to green in America and changing any of it would be a shame. They need bermuda greens with a few changes to putting surfaces to accommodate firmer conditions but current layout with firm Bermuda greens would see 5-10 under par winning the tournament most years.
It was better before the last time changes were made to try and battle the length of the pros

Things like moving the bunker on 14 inside the dogleg, the first two bunkers on the left on 3, the green slip change on 8 all didn’t work out

doesn’t need a total redesign but needs a some big tweaks to make it more playable on tour and for the members
 

Paul in uhh

Active Member
That rerouting happened in the 60's, I think. I remember because I did not like what they did to #13. I saw my first Colonial in '64, iirc. I think the changes were made sometime during my undergrad years at TCU.

The change was after James Garner played in the Pro-Am. I remember attending a practice round the first time Garner saw #13: He said "You gotta be kidding me!" 13 was a really scary-looking hole well over 200 yards over a "canyon." Number 7 was changed, too, but I don't remember how. BTW, Garner was a very good player, around a scratch handicap shot his age at 68 when he posted a 67..
I bet he could really poke it down there
 

SuperBarrFrog

Active Member
You do realize this is only 2 weeks later than regularly scheduled?

What’s supposed to happen in those two weeks? Earth collides with the sun?

Fort Worth avg high in May is 83 and June is 91 which seems pretty significant to me. Also, it was moved 3 weeks not two.
 
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froggolf65

Active Member
It was better before the last time changes were made to try and battle the length of the pros

Things like moving the bunker on 14 inside the dogleg, the first two bunkers on the left on 3, the green slip change on 8 all didn’t work out

doesn’t need a total redesign but needs a some big tweaks to make it more playable on tour and for the members

The holes you listed are 3 of the hardest holes for the tournament so while the bunkers might be hard for members they probably did what was intended.

The bent greens play way too soft for the PGA Tour that is the biggest reason why guys can bomb drivers all day long. If they got firmer greens hitting fairways would become a lot more important.
 
well I missed the first in person presentation due to another commitment and then they had to cancel the last one because of everything going on

But supposedly he is focused on trying to bring back the design philosophy that the course originally had but in a modern equipment world.

You have to be an old man like me to remember some of the early designs we lost - but the most obvious is #8 that used to run almost 90 degrees from the current direction with the green down by the creek. All that was lost when the river authority forced the tee to move and so they moved the green also. Plus the creek has become a trash collector more than a moving water way.

#3 would be changed back to more how it was before the three bunkers were placed inside the dog leg and we lost the protective tree through the fairway

#4 would be adjusted to allow a run up shot to occur again.

#5 I thought I heard they were talking about opening the right side up a little so you could see the river

Lots of other things on the back 9.

My guess is it will be 200 small things that all add up to not feeling like major changes aesthetically but make some big differences in how you play shots off the tee.

The biggest area of interest to me is the vast differences in green complexes that currently exist. Beyond the argument over what "grass" to use is also the fact that Colonial has about 13 really flat greens and about 5 with tiering.

The discussions I have been involved with always wondered if some of the greens were designed by Maxwell and others by Bredemus based on the other courses those two designed independently of each other. Or if Mr Leonard has some say given what he did at Shady Oaks on the front nine when he built it in the 50's.
Any upgrades to the facilities? Clubhouse?
 
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flyfishingfrog

Active Member
The holes you listed are 3 of the hardest holes for the tournament so while the bunkers might be hard for members they probably did what was intended.

The bent greens play way too soft for the PGA Tour that is the biggest reason why guys can bomb drivers all day long. If they got firmer greens hitting fairways would become a lot more important.
They were some of hardest holes since the course opened - the last redesign didn’t make them the hardest

pretty common opinion within the membership the last redesign hasn’t had the effect that was wanted - this why the club is looking to spend the money to have Gil Hanse rework it

the soft greens are more a function of old green complexes and an out of date strain of bent

Hanse was actually in agreement to keep bent but put in venting and watering under the green surface and use a more modern strain of bent

but not sure any decisions have been made
 
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