• The KillerFrogs

Alex Delton transferring to TCU

Wexahu

Full Member
I’m talking in general. Not by September necessarily. And what exactly is Sonny's track record with young QB’s? We’ve had one truly rough year since he’s been here and it was this year when Robinson was never healthy.

I chalk up 2016 as a rough year. Don't really care what the stats say, and I think if I looked they wouldn't be that good anyway, but I know what I saw. For the vast majority of the year we looked like crap offensively.

The thing that worries me most about Cumbie is we aren't even running what he was brought in to run. It's like he's the OC for his recruiting ability and then beyond that we're just trying to piece something together with no real master plan. Honestly, Delton is an example of that. I'm glad we got him, I think he can help, but he's about the last guy you'd think about when talking about Air-Raid QBs. And if we aren't going to run the Air Raid or something similar, why is Cumbie still our OC?
 

Zubaz

Member
I’m talking in general. Not by September necessarily. And what exactly is Sonny's track record with young QB’s? We’ve had one truly rough year since he’s been here and it was this year when Robinson was never healthy.
2014 and 2015 were good years, though I'm fairly certain that a deep analysis would probably reveal a lot of balls that were saved by a first-round NFL receiver in Josh Doctson. When we had to play our backups against Kansas, Oklahoma, and Oregon it was pretty rough (2nd half of the Alamo Bowl being the exception). Backup QB Zach Allen, who would have competed with Hill in the fall of 2016, transfers to Rutgers at the end of the season.
2016 was pretty bad, we had a transfer QB play poorly, and our recruited QBs did not develop well enough to replace him. Backup QB Foster Sawyer, a highly touted recruit, transfers out, as does Brennan Wooten a few months later (though not sure if that was on-field related).
2017 was mediocre. Lots of 150-250 passing yard games against a conference not exactly known for its pass defense. On the plus side, we didn't throw as many INTs either. Then again we didn't have Doctson there to bail Hill out. Robinson didn't play well in his one start.
2018 was brutal. Robinson was banged up, fine, but to have nobody beneath him ready to compete is a disturbing trend when we had several QBs with multiple years in the program.

So yeah, since we lost Boykin, and more importantly since we lost the best receiver in TCU history, our QB play and development has been pretty sub-par under Sonny's watch.
 

4th. down

Active Member
I chalk up 2016 as a rough year. Don't really care what the stats say, and I think if I looked they wouldn't be that good anyway, but I know what I saw. For the vast majority of the year we looked like crap offensively.

The thing that worries me most about Cumbie is we aren't even running what he was brought in to run. It's like he's the OC for his recruiting ability and then beyond that we're just trying to piece something together with no real master plan. Honestly, Delton is an example of that. I'm glad we got him, I think he can help, but he's about the last guy you'd think about when talking about Air-Raid QBs. And if we aren't going to run the Air Raid or something similar, why is Cumbie still our OC?

Well, good points and it appears it's the state of the union for us. However, I believe GP has settled on the following to win games for the Frogs: DEFENSE, field position, kicking game, limited offensive turnovers, a formidable run game that moves the chains and keeps his defense off the field, passing only to compliment the run game and occasionally try and throw it over your head.
i think he has pointed to Cumbie the last 3 games and said "I told you so."
 

Froggish

Active Member
Kenny was an above average college and the guy you omitted (Boykin) was a star. Robinson is an incomplete at worst, Collins played pretty well for a back-up transferring in from an Ivy League school, and the Muehl just wasn’t that good, though he did manage to go 3-0. IMO, there is more current evidence that Sonny is good at developing QB’s as there is that he isn’t.
Just a reminder...I said his track record with new QBs. The guy I omitted was a 2 year starter with a QB passer rating of +120 before Sonny inherited him. Kenny was average at best in 16. Believe he had 13 picks and completed 61%. Thats really average for an offense built on 5 yard passes.

They did both improve under Cumbie.
 

Moose Stuff

Active Member
I chalk up 2016 as a rough year. Don't really care what the stats say, and I think if I looked they wouldn't be that good anyway, but I know what I saw. For the vast majority of the year we looked like crap offensively.

The thing that worries me most about Cumbie is we aren't even running what he was brought in to run. It's like he's the OC for his recruiting ability and then beyond that we're just trying to piece something together with no real master plan. Honestly, Delton is an example of that. I'm glad we got him, I think he can help, but he's about the last guy you'd think about when talking about Air-Raid QBs. And if we aren't going to run the Air Raid or something similar, why is Cumbie still our OC?

We were talking about developing QBs, you’re talking about the offense. It’s undeniable that Kenny Hill got better while he was here.
 

Moose Stuff

Active Member
Just a reminder...I said his track record with new QBs. The guy I omitted was a 2 year starter with a QB passer rating of +120 before Sonny inherited him. Kenny was average at best in 16. Believe he had 13 picks and completed 61%. Thats really average for an offense built on 5 yard passes.

They did both improve under Cumbie.

Sonny inherited Boykin coming off an awful year where 90% of this board wanted him to be a WR. He was immediately a star. I don’t know what you’re talking about with the 120+ rating.
 

JogginFrog

Active Member
-We needed a grad transfer QB...

-Knows every B12 opponent

At the end of the day, this is the value. He has prepped, planned and played against every Big 12 opponent. That would certainly help him as a starter. If he doesn't start, that knowledge will be a big help to whoever wins the job.
 

Wexahu

Full Member
We were talking about developing QBs, you’re talking about the offense. It’s undeniable that Kenny Hill got better while he was here.

Yes, he did, but I think much of that improvement was instead of trusting him to make a bunch of plays like they did in the early part of 2016, they realized he was very prone to turnovers in the passing game so they more or less took the keys away from him and went to a much more run-heavy offense. He was a good athlete who learned to understand his limitations better (as did the coaches), but he didn't really develop all that much as a passer. Just my opinion.
 

Moose Stuff

Active Member
Yes, he did, but I think much of that improvement was instead of trusting him to make a bunch of plays like they did in the early part of 2016, they realized he was very prone to turnovers in the passing game so they more or less took the keys away from him and went to a much more run-heavy offense. He was a good athlete who learned to understand his limitations better (as did the coaches), but he didn't really develop all that much as a passer. Just my opinion.
You can rationalize it however you want. Year 2 Kenny Hill was better than year 1 Kenny Hill. This is a fact.
 

Wexahu

Full Member
You can rationalize it however you want. Year 2 Kenny Hill was better than year 1 Kenny Hill. This is a fact.

Ok. That fact still doesn't give me warm fuzzies about Cumbie's ability to develop QBs, because I think Hill's development as a QB was as much dictated by the scheme and how he was used vs any vastly improved skill set.

We need a coach who can teach a kid how to 1) know who to throw it to and 2) be able to make that decision quick enough to get to the ball to that guy on time. I'm not even sure how coachable that skill is, it might be more more inherent than anything, but that's what this offense has been greatly lacking for a good while. How much of that is on Cumbie I don't know but we'll continue to struggle offensively if our QBs stare down receivers and keep having trouble seeing things in the secondary.
 

Moose Stuff

Active Member
Ok. That fact still doesn't give me warm fuzzies about Cumbie's ability to develop QBs, because I think Hill's development as a QB was as much dictated by the scheme and how he was used vs any vastly improved skill set.

We need a coach who can teach a kid how to 1) know who to throw it to and 2) be able to make that decision quick enough to get to the ball to that guy on time. I'm not even sure how coachable that skill is, it might be more more inherent than anything, but that's what this offense has been greatly lacking for a good while. How much of that is on Cumbie I don't know but we'll continue to struggle offensively if our QBs stare down receivers and keep having trouble seeing things in the secondary.

Water is wet...... go.
 

Froggish

Active Member
Sonny inherited Boykin coming off an awful year where 90% of this board wanted him to be a WR. He was immediately a star. I don’t know what you’re talking about with the 120+ rating.

I was calling for him the whole time. Either way he was a QB who Sonny got with 460 career completion for over 3000 yards and 22 TDS..Those are indisputable facts whether you like the more or not which prove my point that Sonny inherited a pretty damn experience QB. Did he improve him? sure but it was the system more then anything...
 

Moose Stuff

Active Member
I was calling for him the whole time. Either way he was a QB who Sonny got with 460 career completion for over 3000 yards and 22 TDS..Those are indisputable facts whether you like the more or not which prove my point that Sonny inherited a pretty damn experience QB. Did he improve him? sure but it was the system more then anything...

I don’t know what your point is but if it has anything to do with Boykin not being amazingly better the second Sonny set foot on campus then I can’t help you. If you and wex want go out of your way to make sure Sonny gets zero credit then be my guest. I’ve lost interest in the discussion.
 
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