FWST: Why playing this year’s AT&T Byron Nelson means so much to Fort Worth’s J.J. Henry

[Eight]

I played Z-Boaz a lot as a kid growing up starting in the early 70's. The B-52 were ear shattering. You could not think much less hit a golf shot. A wait of about 30 seconds every time. Having said all that I do NOT miss Z-Boaz at all. Good riddance!

​

still enjoy playing those types of courses today because of the challenges they present and one of my favorite golf memories from college took place at z-boaz

had a friend who was a very good golfer and when some of us would play he would always try to hustle some bets from us because he knew he could whip all of us.

one time three of us go out to play and they ask if a walk on can play with us. everyone knows this guy. he was older, wearing tennis shoes, baseball hat with some logo that you couldn't read because of all the paint dripped on it, using a pull cart with what seemed to be on 8-9 clubs total, woods were wood, irons were blades and so was the putter.

had a cigarette in his mouth that somehow was always giving off smoke, but never seemed to burn down nor the ash fall off and he wouldn't take it out of his mouth to drink a beer, merely drank out of the opposite side of the mouth from the cigarette.

his swing was something from a baseball stance, you could see he was self taught, nothing went very high or very long and my friend thought he found a pigeon.

the older guy might not have hit one shot longer than 200 yards that day, but inside 200 yards he could put the ball where he wanted and we were damn lucky he only cleaned out the friends wallet and not go tincup on him and take his car as well.

one of the most impressive rounds of golf i have seen still today

 

[flyfishingfrog]

​

still enjoy playing those types of courses today because of the challenges they present and one of my favorite golf memories from college took place at z-boaz

had a friend who was a very good golfer and when some of us would play he would always try to hustle some bets from us because he knew he could whip all of us.

one time three of us go out to play and they ask if a walk on can play with us. everyone knows this guy. he was older, wearing tennis shoes, baseball hat with some logo that you couldn't read because of all the paint dripped on it, using a pull cart with what seemed to be on 8-9 clubs total, woods were wood, irons were blades and so was the putter.

had a cigarette in his mouth that somehow was always giving off smoke, but never seemed to burn down nor the ash fall off and he wouldn't take it out of his mouth to drink a beer, merely drank out of the opposite side of the mouth from the cigarette.

his swing was something from a baseball stance, you could see he was self taught, nothing went very high or very long and my friend thought he found a pigeon.

the older guy might not have hit one shot longer than 200 yards that day, but inside 200 yards he could put the ball where he wanted and we were damn lucky he only cleaned out the friends wallet and not go tincup on him and take his car as well.

one of the most impressive rounds of golf i have seen still today

So you actually met Titanic Thompson and lived? That’s a story for the ages

 

[CryptoMiner]

Might be a new OT thread, but what are an outsider (or insider) perspective on the various clubs of Fort Worth (in no particular order)
Colonial
Mira Vista
River Crest
Shady Oaks
Ridglea

Colonial is the best
Shady Oaks is next

The others are irrelevant

 

[Tre J]

What’s your handicap? Guessing it has two digits if you prefer either over Colonial

don’t get me wrong - shady is in great shape because of the rebuild

however it’s still a tricked design that feels like two different golf courses between the front and back

8th is a perfect example - a par 5 that takes a full on slice over the trees to not miss the fairway left or go in that new bunker they put in - all to get a second shot into a green that can’t hold a second shot is stupid

Plus they put modern ink blot bunkers on an old school design so it feels like a 70’yr old woman wearing stelettos

and hey go long and you can have a 7ft cliff in the middle of your putt like a putt putt course

Mira vista should be the best course in town with the land it has but years of neglect couple with an uninspiring layout causes it to be stuck at the fourth best - the first hole at MV tells you all you need to know about how they screwed up a great piece of land in the design. Worst second shot in ftW

but they have the best practice facility around



colonial needs a rehab for conditioning and it will get it next year after the 2022 tourney ends - but even without it, it’s the best shot makers course in north Texas.

Playing even the blues and shooting 75 means you either are finding the correct portion of fairways and hitting the second tiniest greens on tour almost every hole or you are getting up and down from a trash can either being short-sided in bunkers or hitting chip shots close from right lies with the grass grain is against you all day

However if shooting bogey golf is your game - it probably doesn’t feel that special given that you can hit 3 below avg shots and 2 putt on the small greens with subtle break and shoot 90 all day long at Colonial

I get the comments on the 1st hole. Seems to be a big issue for people, and I get it. After that it’s good, and I think the closing 5 holes are as fun as it gets when it comes to gambling. Birdies and eagles (or bogeys and doubles) to be made on several, which makes it fun.

 

[gohornedfrogs]

I think Colonial is a better golf course than Shady and for sure Mira Vista, but as far as tour venues go, it's very average IMO, just from a golf course standpoint. It's great to attend though because so many holes are close together.

Not sure if this is right from a Tour players standpoint, or from even an every day golfer's view. The only courses on Tour clearly in a tier better than Colonial are Pebble Beach, Riviera, Bay Hill, TPC Sawgrass, Quail Hollow, Muirfield Village, and this year, Caves Valley for the BMW Championship. That's only seven out of like 48 courses that are "better" than Colonial, plus the four majors, and it's never a given that the PGA Championship course will be better than Colonial.

Colonial is still very high up in that second tier with Torrey Pines, Harbour Town, East Lake, PGA National, Sherwood Country Club, Congaree and Shadow Creek (some players love it, others don't). Memorial Park may fit into that group -- jury is still out. Concession may fall into this group, but time will tell. Austin CC could be in that tier, too, but I wouldn't say it's better than Colonial.

The Tour plays at eight other TPC courses, and most of them are way below Colonial. Then you have the Hawaii courses (very average), the courses in Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic (marginal resort courses), Innisbrook (another marginal resort course), Sea Island (again, marginal resort course), and junk in Kentucky, Tahoe, Mississippi, and Greensboro.

I'd say it's safe to say Colonial is still squarely in the top 15 of the 48 or so regular courses on the Tour. That's far from average. The field has suffered because of scheduling conflicts overseas, the move of the PGA Championship to May, and the style of play of the modern tour pro. That doesn't diminish the quality of the course or its architecture.

 

[Wexahu]

Not sure if this is right from a Tour players standpoint, or from even an every day golfer's view. The only courses on Tour clearly in a tier better than Colonial are Pebble Beach, Riviera, Bay Hill, TPC Sawgrass, Quail Hollow, Muirfield Village, and this year, Caves Valley for the BMW Championship. That's only seven out of like 48 courses that are "better" than Colonial, plus the four majors, and it's never a given that the PGA Championship course will be better than Colonial.

Colonial is still very high up in that second tier with Torrey Pines, Harbour Town, East Lake, PGA National, Sherwood Country Club, Congaree and Shadow Creek (some players love it, others don't). Memorial Park may fit into that group -- jury is still out. Concession may fall into this group, but time will tell. Austin CC could be in that tier, too, but I wouldn't say it's better than Colonial.

The Tour plays at eight other TPC courses, and most of them are way below Colonial. Then you have the Hawaii courses (very average), the courses in Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic (marginal resort courses), Innisbrook (another marginal resort course), Sea Island (again, marginal resort course), and junk in Kentucky, Tahoe, Mississippi, and Greensboro.

I'd say it's safe to say Colonial is still squarely in the top 15 of the 48 or so regular courses on the Tour. That's far from average. The field has suffered because of scheduling conflicts overseas, the move of the PGA Championship to May, and the style of play of the modern tour pro. That doesn't diminish the quality of the course or its architecture.

Generally, I think there is a tendency to glamorize the old layouts and just label anything with TPC in front of it as a contrived, overrated course, which is probably unfair to those courses. Colonial is a good golf course for sure, I just think if you go hole-by-hole there really isn't anything that stands out. Technology really has taken a toll on how the course was meant to be played.

Not sure how you label Sea Island and Innisbrook as "marginal resort courses" but hold Colonial in such high esteem. And I would guess that the players like Colonial just fine, but I think their love of the tournament has more to do with things other than the golf course.

 

[flyfishingfrog]

Generally, I think there is a tendency to glamorize the old layouts and just label anything with TPC in front of it as a contrived, overrated course, which is probably unfair to those courses. Colonial is a good golf course for sure, I just think if you go hole-by-hole there really isn't anything that stands out. Technology really has taken a toll on how the course was meant to be played.

Not sure how you label Sea Island and Innisbrook as "marginal resort courses" but hold Colonial in such high esteem. And I would guess that the players like Colonial just fine, but I think their love of the tournament has more to do with things other than the golf course.

Innisbrook is a good layout with 5 great holes that is in terrible shape all year including for the tournament

plus it runs between all those hotel rooms and condos - Sherwin williams long term guarantee is the only thing keeping it alive. PGA has tried to move it before actually but won’t as along as Sherwin is willing to continue to pay the freight

I like Sea Island - the whole resort is great. It’s a good course for sure.

of the ones he listed - Bay Hill is the one I would argue with. It’s a good course by all means but definitely not great. Palmer turned it into a solid tournament course by sheer will over 25 years because it was the worst course when he bought it - felt like a Sun City retirement course at first.

And for the record - outside of Zach snd Rosie breaking the 20 under barrier in wet years with no wind - colonial has had about the same winning score since the 90s when metal woods and a 3 piece ball were introduced - it sits right in the middle of average winning scores with the number being lower in years the wind blows

there aren’t many good TPC courses to be fair - Craig ranch is a perfect example. It’s long, that is all. It’s impossible to miss a fairway and the greens are tricked up to make up for it. Which is a common approach at many TPC tracked it seems

I actually think Sawgrass is overrated to be truthful- the last few holes are made for a big finish but the course is just built to be hard - not to test your overall game. Hitting drivers every hole doesn’t take imagination just takes land

 

[flyfishingfrog]

I get the comments on the 1st hole. Seems to be a big issue for people, and I get it. After that it’s good, and I think the closing 5 holes are as fun as it gets when it comes to gambling. Birdies and eagles (or bogeys and doubles) to be made on several, which makes it fun.

It can be enjoyable to play for sure - but that doesn’t mean it’s a good design

the par 5s are really boring in my opinion and many of the par 4s play the same distance in after the tee shot

maybe I am disappointed because it’s so easy to see what could have been great had they hired at better architect or been willing to sacrifice some home lots for better hole routings

 

[HToady]

Colonial remains in a precarious relationship in it's future with the PGA. Every year the PGA threatens Colonial. The main reason it's still on the tour is because the Byron Nelson has failed so miserably. With the PGA moving their offices to Frisco, eventually, the Byron Nelson will be there also and Colonial will be the first to go. For some reason, some of the better known professional players complain about the narrow fairways. Last year it was whiney Rory McElroy.

As stated above Colonial is going to spend 20+ million on course improvements, but tradition will eventually succomb to PGA bad decisions and entitled players.

 

[Paul in uhh]

Just noticed they aren’t playing the Byron Nelson at that links course anymore. What happened there? Didn’t they build that course specifically to host the Byron?

 

[Paul in uhh]

Colonial remains in a precarious relationship in it's future with the PGA. Every year the PGA threatens Colonial. The main reason it's still on the tour is because the Byron Nelson has failed so miserably. With the PGA moving their offices to Frisco, eventually, the Byron Nelson will be there also and Colonial will be the first to go. For some reason, some of the better known professional players complain about the narrow fairways. Last year it was whiney Rory McElroy.

As stated above Colonial is going to spend 20+ million on course improvements, but tradition will eventually succomb to PGA bad decisions and entitled players.

Because “bomb and birdie” golf dominates TV ratings, and makes players happier.

No casual golf fan cares about shot shaping or anything other than a 300 yard drive off the tee and a birdie at the other end. The good players whine most years about the us open and PGA setups because they are actually challenging.

 

[Paul in uhh]

Not sure if this is right from a Tour players standpoint, or from even an every day golfer's view. The only courses on Tour clearly in a tier better than Colonial are Pebble Beach, Riviera, Bay Hill, TPC Sawgrass, Quail Hollow, Muirfield Village, and this year, Caves Valley for the BMW Championship. That's only seven out of like 48 courses that are "better" than Colonial, plus the four majors, and it's never a given that the PGA Championship course will be better than Colonial.

Colonial is still very high up in that second tier with Torrey Pines, Harbour Town, East Lake, PGA National, Sherwood Country Club, Congaree and Shadow Creek (some players love it, others don't). Memorial Park may fit into that group -- jury is still out. Concession may fall into this group, but time will tell. Austin CC could be in that tier, too, but I wouldn't say it's better than Colonial.

The Tour plays at eight other TPC courses, and most of them are way below Colonial. Then you have the Hawaii courses (very average), the courses in Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic (marginal resort courses), Innisbrook (another marginal resort course), Sea Island (again, marginal resort course), and junk in Kentucky, Tahoe, Mississippi, and Greensboro.

I'd say it's safe to say Colonial is still squarely in the top 15 of the 48 or so regular courses on the Tour. That's far from average. The field has suffered because of scheduling conflicts overseas, the move of the PGA Championship to May, and the style of play of the modern tour pro. That doesn't diminish the quality of the course or its architecture.

The Sony open course (wailae) may be average but Kapalua Plantation in Maui is incredible. I’d pay to play it ten times before playing a free round at colonial. And I like colonial a lot.

 

[Froglaw]

I think Colonial is a better golf course than Shady and for sure Mira Vista, but as far as tour venues go, it's very average IMO, just from a golf course standpoint. It's great to attend though because so many holes are close together.

I've never played Shady Oaks, but Dan Jenkins thought colonial was pretty darn good after the Maxwell redesign.

He had #5 listed as the best golf hole ever built by a brown river and a railroad yard.

Hard to argue.

 

[Wexahu]

I've never played Shady Oaks, but Dan Jenkins thought colonial was pretty darn good after the Maxwell redesign.

He had #5 listed as the best golf hole ever built by a brown river and a railroad yard.

Hard to argue.

Shady is just too short and tricked up to be considered a great championship course IMO. Pros would never hit more than a wedge into a par 4 out there. Fun to play though no doubt.

Dan Jenkins had about a biggest case of good 'ol day syndrome of any human alive and he loved him some Colonial and Hogan, so he naturally was going to pump up the course as much as possible. #5 is a hybrid off the tee and a 6 or 7-iron these days for the tour guys, just not what it used to be. But I liked the brown river and rail yard part.

Again, Colonial, good course, best in town. Just overrated a bit IMO.

 

[Eight]

Because “bomb and birdie” golf dominates TV ratings, and makes players happier.

No casual golf fan cares about shot shaping or anything other than a 300 yard drive off the tee and a birdie at the other end. The good players whine most years about the us open and PGA setups because they are actually challenging.

watching a golf ball fly 300+ yards on television really is pretty damn boring to me as opposed to say bubba watson hitting his blind shot with the 90 degree perfectly timed veer in the air at the masters. really don't watch much golf anymore on television now that i think about it.

then again i don't care about launch angles and exit velocities in baseball. i don't need numbers to tell me tucker, alvarez, and mccormick hit the [ Finebaum ] out the baseballs last night on their home runs

 

[BrewingFrog]

Because “bomb and birdie” golf dominates TV ratings, and makes players happier.

No casual golf fan cares about shot shaping or anything other than a 300 yard drive off the tee and a birdie at the other end. The good players whine most years about the us open and PGA setups because they are actually challenging.

They [ hundin] about the U.S. Open because they cut the rough with a helicopter.

About the only time I have fun watching golf is when the conditions put the golfers in stressful situations. Wind. Mud. Dry. Normally, these guys are pampered, and the courses are set up in utterly pristine fashion. This is about as alien an experience to the average schlub as being whisked away in a flying saucer. Watching "The Greatest Players in the World" deal with strong winds is fun, because it takes them out of their comfort zone and makes them look and act like the average goof out on the links on a Thursday afternoon...

 

[HToady]

They [ hundin] about the U.S. Open because they cut the rough with a helicopter.

About the only time I have fun watching golf is when the conditions put the golfers in stressful situations. Wind. Mud. Dry. Normally, these guys are pampered, and the courses are set up in utterly pristine fashion. This is about as alien an experience to the average schlub as being whisked away in a flying saucer. Watching "The Greatest Players in the World" deal with strong winds is fun, because it takes them out of their comfort zone and makes them look and act like the average goof out on the links on a Thursday afternoon...

The main reason the British Open is so much fun to watch. The conditions are almost always excrutiating. Plus it comes on during breakfast....

 

[Wexahu]

They [ hundin] about the U.S. Open because they cut the rough with a helicopter.

About the only time I have fun watching golf is when the conditions put the golfers in stressful situations. Wind. Mud. Dry. Normally, these guys are pampered, and the courses are set up in utterly pristine fashion. This is about as alien an experience to the average schlub as being whisked away in a flying saucer. Watching "The Greatest Players in the World" deal with strong winds is fun, because it takes them out of their comfort zone and makes them look and act like the average goof out on the links on a Thursday afternoon...

I'd say "used to be". The modern ball is affected by the wind about half as much as the old balls were. Besides, they get the greens rolling so fast that if it's truly windy (like it was at Riviera earlier this year) they can't play because the balls rolls off the greens.

 

[JogginFrog]

What I love most about golf is the variety course to course and the relationship between land, architect and player. You couldn't have this conversation about any sport that involves lines on a court or field.

The fact that a course built in a river flood plain 85 years ago still challenges today's pros and is worth the attention of trendy golf vlogs is a testament to outstanding green complexes and a community that cares.

If I had to play the same course every day, I'd probably choose something with more land movement. But why would I do that? So many good choices.

 

[flyfishingfrog]

Colonial remains in a precarious relationship in it's future with the PGA. Every year the PGA threatens Colonial. The main reason it's still on the tour is because the Byron Nelson has failed so miserably. With the PGA moving their offices to Frisco, eventually, the Byron Nelson will be there also and Colonial will be the first to go. For some reason, some of the better known professional players complain about the narrow fairways. Last year it was whiney Rory McElroy.

As stated above Colonial is going to spend 20+ million on course improvements, but tradition will eventually succomb to PGA bad decisions and entitled players.

As long as Charles Schwab continues to sponsor Colonial - which they have said they want to extend since they moved to Westlake last year- and the PGA tour and CS stay on good terms around the senior tour - Colonial is not going anywhere

and honestly I don’t know that the Byron will move to a course at PGA Headquarters- they will want to be able host the PGA Championship at their headquarters every 4-5 years is what I was told and they don’t allow majors at courses that host normal tour events. I guess they could move it every 5 years to another location like they did with the Wells Fargo and Quail Hollow last year.