• The KillerFrogs

Big 12 vs SEC Challenge 2020

Eight

Member
What was everyone's expectations of the freshmen?

Is it because some recruiting analyst (who has no clue what he is looking at) gave them X amount of stars?

I said all along that they're going to be good but everyone needed to be patient. That's the way the coaches feel too. That's why they got two grad transfers to go along with them.

IMO, they have all played well and are getting better. It takes time.

skip, my expectation is that they come to campus with at least one skill developed enough they can contribute with some degree of regularly on the offensive end.

not dominate, not be a leader, but contribute on a regular basis on the offensive end.

other programs have freshmen contribute, desmond contributed as a freshman and he wasn't highly rated, jaylen contributed, and kendric did last year.

understand an athletic kid who in high school can get to the rim any time he wants needing to work on an outside game and i think the extra foot on the 3 point line has had an impact.

i don't understand a player needing 3-4 years to develop an outside game and i really don't understand some who were signed and just overwhelmed from the start.
 

jake102

Active Member
other programs have freshmen contribute, desmond contributed as a freshman and he wasn't highly rated, jaylen contributed, and kendric did last year.

This.

That being said I've got hopes for all three, but they are all further behind the curve than I had hoped. I think the Dennis addition is the most painful at the moment.
 

Skip Jansen

Active Member
skip, my expectation is that they come to campus with at least one skill developed enough they can contribute with some degree of regularly on the offensive end.

not dominate, not be a leader, but contribute on a regular basis on the offensive end.

other programs have freshmen contribute, desmond contributed as a freshman and he wasn't highly rated, jaylen contributed, and kendric did last year.

understand an athletic kid who in high school can get to the rim any time he wants needing to work on an outside game and i think the extra foot on the 3 point line has had an impact.

i don't understand a player needing 3-4 years to develop an outside game and i really don't understand some who were signed and just overwhelmed from the start.

Eight-

So... based on your comments, you are happy with the freshmen, correct?

Bello, Diante, and PJ are all contributing to this year's team success.

I think the biggest problem is fans sometimes confuse 'expectations' and 'hope'. Fans also think about their team in 'best case scenario' terms for the most part. The combination of both of those is usually disappointment.
 
Last edited:

Eight

Member
Eight-

So... based on your comments, you are happy with the freshmen, correct?

Bello, Diante, and PJ are all contributing to this year's team success.

I think the biggest problem is fans sometimes confuse 'expectations' and 'hope'. Fans also think about their team in 'best case scenario' terms for the most part. The combination of both of those is usually disappointment.

i don't think it is as simple as happy or not.

i think there has been a great deal of inconsistency with the three and while we have definitely seen flashes of potential from 3 of the 5 freshmen, but none of those 3 have been consistent in their efforts this year.

diante has done some good things they last three games and i do think he is starting to understand how he can contribute to the team,

pj has taken some steps back since conference play. the physical tools are still there, but he is struggling to adjust against the defense played in conference and i think that is reflected in shooting 20% from the floor and from 3 and he is upside down 2:1 on assists to turnovers.

he still plays hard, does some good things on defense, but to use the word happy wouldn't be how i would describe my thoughts on his play on the offensive side the last 7 games.

finally, francisco might be the most frustrating one of the three because while he isn't killing it in the way jaylen did as a freshmam or takes charge like kendric did last year when he came into the game he is splitting time with a guy who is struggling shooting the ball in conference play and upside on assists to turnovers.

not calling anyone a bust, see that these three have potential, but i wouldn't go as far as say they have shown that consistent offensive skill i mentioned. .
 

Skip Jansen

Active Member
i don't think it is as simple as happy or not.

i think there has been a great deal of inconsistency with the three and while we have definitely seen flashes of potential from 3 of the 5 freshmen, but none of those 3 have been consistent in their efforts this year.

diante has done some good things they last three games and i do think he is starting to understand how he can contribute to the team,

pj has taken some steps back since conference play. the physical tools are still there, but he is struggling to adjust against the defense played in conference and i think that is reflected in shooting 20% from the floor and from 3 and he is upside down 2:1 on assists to turnovers.

he still plays hard, does some good things on defense, but to use the word happy wouldn't be how i would describe my thoughts on his play on the offensive side the last 7 games.

finally, francisco might be the most frustrating one of the three because while he isn't killing it in the way jaylen did as a freshmam or takes charge like kendric did last year when he came into the game he is splitting time with a guy who is struggling shooting the ball in conference play and upside on assists to turnovers.

not calling anyone a bust, see that these three have potential, but i wouldn't go as far as say they have shown that consistent offensive skill i mentioned. .

I don't necessarily disagree with you on any of that. But... I would argue that a "great deal of inconsistency" is the essence of freshmen playing at this level.

There are a few exceptions, but for the most part, freshmen are still how to play the game. A guy like PJ has never played against 'help' defense and rotation before. If he beat his defender off the bounce (in HS) he went to the rim and dunked it. And, those were in the games where the opponent actually played 'man' defense (unfortunately those are not very often anymore).

I guess the biggest question I have is-

Where do the expectations come from?
 

Boomhauer

Active Member
I don't necessarily disagree with you on any of that. But... I would argue that a "great deal of inconsistency" is the essence of freshmen playing at this level.

There are a few exceptions, but for the most part, freshmen are still how to play the game. A guy like PJ has never played against 'help' defense and rotation before. If he beat his defender off the bounce (in HS) he went to the rim and dunked it. And, those were in the games where the opponent actually played 'man' defense (unfortunately those are not very often anymore).

I guess the biggest question I have is-

Where do the expectations come from?

Hey Skip, why are we seeing so little M2M these days? Went to 3-4 HS games over the last few weeks (mostly Dallas 6A and some 4A outside then metroplex) and almost all were zone defense. Surprised me. Don’t remember seeing these even last year with some of those teams.
 

Eight

Member
I don't necessarily disagree with you on any of that. But... I would argue that a "great deal of inconsistency" is the essence of freshmen playing at this level.

There are a few exceptions, but for the most part, freshmen are still how to play the game. A guy like PJ has never played against 'help' defense and rotation before. If he beat his defender off the bounce (in HS) he went to the rim and dunked it. And, those were in the games where the opponent actually played 'man' defense (unfortunately those are not very often anymore).

I guess the biggest question I have is-

Where do the expectations come from?

watching a guy line bane, fisher, and davis contribute at tcu frorm darn near the jump.

watching other freshmen in other programs contribute in year 1 and i am not talking the one and done's.

there are too many kids who somehow contribute before years 3-4 and unfortunately we have seen a number of kids recently come to tcu who have been way overmatched on the offensive end of the floor.

maybe my expectations are way too high or off base, but when a kid who is a guard is in your program in year 3 and still shoots before 40% from the floor that is a bit confusing
 

Skip Jansen

Active Member
watching a guy line bane, fisher, and davis contribute at tcu frorm darn near the jump.

watching other freshmen in other programs contribute in year 1 and i am not talking the one and done's.

there are too many kids who somehow contribute before years 3-4 and unfortunately we have seen a number of kids recently come to tcu who have been way overmatched on the offensive end of the floor.

maybe my expectations are way too high or off base, but when a kid who is a guard is in your program in year 3 and still shoots before 40% from the floor that is a bit confusing

I don't have a problem with fans having high expectations. I think they just need to keep everything in perspective.

You mentioned that "Bane, Fisher, and Davis contributed from the jump." Do you not think Smith, Bello, and Fuller are contributing?

Bello is shooting 44% from 3 and has a 3:1 Asst to TO ratio. Kendric didn't have that. Bane and Fisher were both up and down as Freshmen.

if you look around the Big 12, besides Oscar and Ramsey, the freshmen are all inconsistent. Some aren't contributing at all. UT has 3 kids that were all higher rated than TCU's and they are barely playing. There are other examples but I'm not trying to argue. I was just curious where the expectations came from.
 

Eight

Member
one issue i think the frogs are facing is the issue of having to play freshmen who may not be ready or asked to fit a role they don't really do well instead of having freshmen who win playing time.

all practical purposes the frogs are set at two positions, have a third they are hoping they get solid play from, and still have two holes in their starting rotation let alone the first 2-3 off their bench.
 

Skip Jansen

Active Member
Hey Skip, why are we seeing so little M2M these days? Went to 3-4 HS games over the last few weeks (mostly Dallas 6A and some 4A outside then metroplex) and almost all were zone defense. Surprised me. Don’t remember seeing these even last year with some of those teams.

I'm not 100% sure. The coaches I talk to say that time is part of the problem. They say they don't have enough time to implement man defense (w/help, rotations, etc).

I think there may be some truth to that, but I also suspect that 'winning' is placed too high on the priority list. IMO, development should be the number priority at the HS level (with winning somewhere down the list). Unfortunately, HS coaches are under pressure to win way more than they should be. So goes the world that we live in and the society where we stand.
 

Eight

Member
I don't have a problem with fans having high expectations. I think they just need to keep everything in perspective.

You mentioned that "Bane, Fisher, and Davis contributed from the jump." Do you not think Smith, Bello, and Fuller are contributing?

Bello is shooting 44% from 3 and has a 3:1 Asst to TO ratio. Kendric didn't have that. Bane and Fisher were both up and down as Freshmen.

if you look around the Big 12, besides Oscar and Ramsey, the freshmen are all inconsistent. Some aren't contributing at all. UT has 3 kids that were all higher rated than TCU's and they are barely playing. There are other examples but I'm not trying to argue. I was just curious where the expectations came from.

bello for the season has 50 assists and 24 turnovers and in conference play those numbers go to 14 and 10

he has shot a good percentage from three, but the problem is he doesn't shoot. the only frog who plays on a regular basis that shoots less than him is ledee which explains his 3.9 points per game . really tough to pose a threat on the drive when the defense knows you won't shoot the ball.

no, kendric didn't shoot as well from 3 but he did attack the basket and he would shoot the ball. he averaged just over 7 points a game in conference play.yes, he had rough spots, but he also had games like the 22 pints against iowa state and he was fearless attacking the basket.

jaylen his freshman year averaged just under 10 points a game and had 140 assist. conference play that year he shot 40% from the floor, 40% from 3, averaged 10 a gamen and had 77 assists to 49 turnovers. granted, he had vlad and kenrich to dump the ball to that year. jaylen was in double digits 9 times in conference play.

desmon as a freshman shoot 51% from the floor for the year and 47% from the floor in conference play. he averaged only 5 a game, but that was a team with vlad, alex, kenrich, jd, and brandon as well as desmond.

you think i am way off base which is fine, but we see the numbers and the play differently.

i also really don't care about the texas freshmen other than what they do tonight and the next time the frogs play them. shaka's issue if his freshmen are or are not contributing, but two of those 3 are bigs and with how jericho sims is playing there isn't a great deal of time in the post.
 
Last edited:

Skip Jansen

Active Member
bello for the season has 50 assists and 24 turnovers and in conference play those numbers go to 14 and 10

he has shot a good percentage from three, but the problem is he doesn't shoot. the only frog who plays on a regular basis that shoots less than him is ledee which explains his 3.9 points per game . really tough to pose a threat on the drive when the defense knows you won't shoot the ball.

no, kendric didn't shoot as well from 3 but he did attack the basket and he would shoot the ball. he averaged just over 7 points a game in conference play.yes, he had rough spots, but he also had games like the 22 pints against iowa state and he was fearless attacking the basket.

jaylen his freshman year averaged just under 10 points a game and had 140 assist. conference play that year he shot 40% from the floor, 40% from 3, averaged 10 a gamen and had 77 assists to 49 turnovers. granted, he had vlad and kenrich to dump the ball to that year. jaylen was in double digits 9 times in conference play.

desmon as a freshman shoot 51% from the floor for the year and 47% from the floor in conference play. he averaged only 5 a game, but that was a team with vlad, alex, kenrich, jd, and brandon as well as desmond.

you think i am way off base which is fine, but we see the numbers and the play differently.

I don't think your way off base, I think you are just cherry picking the stats to forward your argument.

And. I think your expectations are too high based on those stats.

I've been scouting HS and Juco basketball for over 20 years and I don't have those same expectations.
 

jake102

Active Member
I don't think your way off base, I think you are just cherry picking the stats to forward your argument.

And. I think your expectations are too high based on those stats.

I've been scouting HS and Juco basketball for over 20 years and I don't have those same expectations.

So what should our realistic expectations be for these guys over the next 1-2 years?
 

Eight

Member
I don't think your way off base, I think you are just cherry picking the stats to forward your argument.

And. I think your expectations are too high based on those stats.

I've been scouting HS and Juco basketball for over 20 years and I don't have those same expectations.

i reply to the stats you give me and then you accuse me of cherry picking?

heck, i didn't even counter with miles mcbride at wvu or their big who is leading them in scoring.

don't worry though, you have made it clear i am expecting way too much and i think i will leave this and all the other basket threads to the sunshine kids
 

Skip Jansen

Active Member
i reply to the stats you give me and then you accuse me of cherry picking?

heck, i didn't even counter with miles mcbride at wvu or their big who is leading them in scoring.

don't worry though, you have made it clear i am expecting way too much and i think i will leave this and all the other basket threads to the sunshine kids

That's B.S. and you know it. I didn't say anything about "conference play". You did. You cherry picked the portion of the season that best fit your argument.
 

Skip Jansen

Active Member
i reply to the stats you give me and then you accuse me of cherry picking?

heck, i didn't even counter with miles mcbride at wvu or their big who is leading them in scoring.

don't worry though, you have made it clear i am expecting way too much and i think i will leave this and all the other basket threads to the sunshine kids

Also, this has nothing to do with 'sunshine pumpers' or 'doom and gloomers'.

There are plenty of times when I've been critical of TCU basketball. I do it when I think it's called for. And, IMO calling out the freshmen for 'not contributing' isn't one of them.

BTW- I think you're dead on about "having to play" 3 freshmen in pivotal roles.
 

Eight

Member
That's B.S. and you know it. I didn't say anything about "conference play". You did. You cherry picked the portion of the season that best fit your argument.

you sited bello's 44% as a plus when they guy takes less than than 3 3's A SEASON. and you accuse me of cherry picking?

now that is funny and when the point guard of an offense that is dependent on the pick and roll and dribble penetration has only taken 6 shots inside the arc in conference play that seems to be an issue to this fool, but i am way off base so i guess i will go find the other crackpots and ramble on with our misguided thoughts and expectations
 

Skip Jansen

Active Member
you sited bello's 44% as a plus when they guy takes less than than 3 3's A SEASON. and you accuse me of cherry picking?

now that is funny and when the point guard of an offense that is dependent on the pick and roll and dribble penetration has only taken 6 shots inside the arc in conference play that seems to be an issue to this fool, but i am way off base so i guess i will go find the other crackpots and ramble on with our misguided thoughts and expectations

What? "3 3s A SEASON"? What in the hell are you talking about?

I said, Bello shoots 44% from the 3. I said it in a comparison to Kendric. Kendric shot 32% from 3 last year. That's ALL year. That's the opposite of cherry picking.
 
Top