FWST: An elite eight in college football? The case for and against expanding the playoffs.

[Dogfrog]

OK, let's pretend that there are ZERO logistical concerns.....I still wouldn't like an expanded playoffs and don't think it's necessary. College football has bar none the best regular season in sports, there are basically elimination games every weekend. I love the fact that there is so little margin for error and that every game is critical. How many truly competitive games do teams like Ohio State, Alabama, Clemson and Oklahoma play every year? Three? Four? Maybe five in some cases? I don't really want a system where a team can lose two of those and still be basically locked into a playoff spot. That's what makes the regular season so good, no team can afford to slip up much. No system is absolutely perfect but there isn't much wrong with the system currently in place. With very few exceptions, those additional games would be games that don't really need to be played because the pecking order is decided in the regular season.

If Alabama loses to Auburn and LSU they don't deserve a chance to play for a national championship IMO. Ditto for Wisconsin if they lose to Ohio State and Iowa. This year Oklahoma wasn't even competitive against LSU and now we'd be talking about Baylor being a playoff team, and they had two tries against OU and lost both. In most every year it'd just be adding games that aren't necessary to determine a champion.

The NCAA basketball tournament is a fun event but the fact that basically every decent team makes the tournament does make the regular season kind of an afterthought. What is the intrigue in a February matchup between two really good teams? The outcomes are kind of irrelevant because come March every team starts over and plays a single elimination tournament, and that's really all the casual fan cares about . Outside of TCU games I for the most part don't even watch college basketball, I just wait until mid-March.

The beauty of the regular basketball season is that teams get to develop, gel, get coached up, see what they can be. There are two distinct seasons - performance in the first dictates who gets into the tournament and seeds. The second is a 6? round tournament where every game could be your last. Nothing better than that.

 

[Wexahu]

The beauty of the regular basketball season is that teams get to develop, gel, get coached up, see what they can be. There are two distinct seasons - performance in the first dictates who gets into the tournament and seeds. The second is a 6? round tournament where every game could be your last. Nothing better than that.

If that’s the case, lets just go to a 64-team football playoff and let everyone in. That’ll make the regular season thrilling, so thrilling that coaches won’t even play starters.

Two completely different sports, the comparison between the two is dumb.

 

[flyfishingfrog]

Every P5 team can make the playoffs. If you are clinging to the idea that they can’t then there is no use debating anything with you.

and I “ can” win the lottery - it just doesn’t happen

again it’s better for college football if more teams make the play offs just like it has been in EVERY other sport played on the planet

seriously show me another sport that increased inclusion in the post season and it has been detrimental for the sport?

 

[flyfishingfrog]

Don't "you and Wex" me. I came in to figure out how this could work, and I haven't heard a good idea yet. Yours is the worst because 6 of the top 8 teams don't even go to a bowl.

Let me explain it based on some of our own experiences.

In 2009, the eight team playoff, with the structure that all P5 champs are in and one G5 is in but locked to 6-8 seed (suggested in this thread) means that these teams would have been in.

1 Alabama
2 Texas
7 Oregon
8 Ohio State
9 Georgia Tech

3 Cincinnati gets in as the G5 rep, and they are the 6 seed.

Florida is in as #5.

Does #4 TCU get in as a second G5? If so, they are probably behind Florida and all the P5 champs, and Cincy. That puts us at 8, traveling to Alabama.

In 2010, as the top G5, we are seeded 6 and instead of going to the Rose Bowl, I can show the pictures from our trip to Madison WI (actually I'm probably not high enough in priority points so I won't get seats). And some of the people who do get seats will sell them on StubHub, giving Maniac a coronary at age 19.

I'd love it if there were a logical and fair way to do this, but giving up the big money bowls where lots of people travel and spend money, and the CCGs where people do similar, in exchange for Baylor at LSU (where it's a home game and Baylor gets 2,000 tickets) doesn't seem to bring the same financial windfall. I can't see a ton of eyeballs on that game, and guess that the SEC CCG (Georgia LSU) along with bowls bring in more money.

Lots of fans travel to LA for a Rose Bowl, as we did in 2011. We spent lots of cash.

Adding one televised round of 1 vs 8 doesn't bring in a ton of eyeballs and is a money losing proposition.

who gives a crap of the call the first level of the playoffs in an 8 team playoff a bowl? Is that really your problem? That its not a bowl?

Assuming we don’t win our conference, Let me think about these options -

we can play Oregon in Oregon or Georgia in Georgia or tOSU or Bama Or whoever that is a top 4 team and if we win we get another great opponent the next week - all with a shot at the NC

or we can play a team that finished 5 - 8 like us in a neutral site around New Years in a “Bowl” and win or lose, we are done, no more games, no chance at an NC and no one will ever remember the game but hey we get 1/3rd of the endzone seats for our fans

which would I rather have......

 

[Dogfrog]

If that’s the case, lets just go to a 64-team football playoff and let everyone in. That’ll make the regular season thrilling, so thrilling that coaches won’t even play starters.

Two completely different sports, the comparison between the two is dumb.

The only dumb comparison is the 64 team playoff for obvious reasons.

 

[flyfishingfrog]

If that’s the case, lets just go to a 64-team football playoff and let everyone in. That’ll make the regular season thrilling, so thrilling that coaches won’t even play starters.

Two completely different sports, the comparison between the two is dumb.

So you don’t like NFL comparisons even though they are the same sport just pro

you don’t like March madness because it’s a different sport

soccer, fedex cup, grand slam tennis, Winston cup, hockey, cricket, Olympic team sports...

sorry - every sport has figured out a way to increase the pool of teams in a post season situation that can play their way to win it all

 

[froginmn]

who gives a crap of the call the first level of the playoffs in an 8 team playoff a bowl? Is that really your problem? That its not a bowl?

Assuming we don’t win our conference, Let me think about these options -

we can play Oregon in Oregon or Georgia in Georgia or tOSU or Bama Or whoever that is a top 4 team and if we win we get another great opponent the next week - all with a shot at the NC

or we can play a team that finished 5 - 8 like us in a neutral site around New Years and win or lose, we are done, no more games, no chance at an NC and no one will ever remember the game but hey we get 1/3rd if the endzone seats for our fans

which would I rather have......

I'm trying to tell you that I have attended three BCS/NY6 bowl games. They were a great experience for me, and my family. I enjoy attending college football games, and going to the Rose Bowl with my two kids (aged 9 and 7 at the time) was one of the best experiences of my life. We traveled to LA, went to Rodeo Drive and Beverly Hills, and saw one of the best games I've ever experienced at a stadium that was breathtaking. Got to see the Rose Parade in person and enjoy it with my family.

And going to the Peach Bowl with my then 13 year old daughter was a hell of a good time. We visited CNN and world of coca cola, and saw the MLK memorial.

I wouldn't trade that for watching a road game on TV even against a great team, if we aren't in the top four and likely don't have much chance to run the table anyway. And if we have a team good enough to be in the top four, then I can travel to a neutral site to see the game you're talking about.

Why is that tough to understand?

 

[HG73]

You must keep the playoff small, otherwise it's too hard on the players and the regular season becomes meaningless.

Conference champions only, CCG winners. Big double motivation of a conference championship and a playoff berth makes those games huge. 5 CCG winners, #4 plays #5 in a wild card game, winner in the final four. Just one extra game.

Or appoint a Commissioner of College Football to redistribute 64 teams into four conferences and have an NFL type playoff. He could also negotiate a new TV deal.

Better would be 8 conferences with 9 teams each. 72 teams means 7 teams move up and each conference has 8 conference games with 4 home and 4 away games. The 8 champs have a seeded three round playoff. No CCGs.

That is all.

 

[Dogfrog]

I'm trying to tell you that I have attended three BCS/NY6 bowl games. They were a great experience for me, and my family. I enjoy attending college football games, and going to the Rose Bowl with my two kids (aged 9 and 7 at the time) was one of the best experiences of my life. We traveled to LA, went to Rodeo Drive and Beverly Hills, and saw one of the best games I've ever experienced at a stadium that was breathtaking. Got to see the Rose Parade in person and enjoy it with my family.

And going to the Peach Bowl with my then 13 year old daughter was a hell of a good time. We visited CNN and world of coca cola, and saw the MLK memorial.

I wouldn't trade that for watching a road game on TV even against a great team.

Why is that tough to understand?

Understand your thoughts and agree about the good times traveling to bowls but, what is best for the future of college football is not necessarily what is best for you and your family, or me and mine. But why can’t there be even better times in a better, fairer system?

 

[flyfishingfrog]

I'm trying to tell you that I have attended three BCS/NY6 bowl games. They were a great experience for me, and my family. I enjoy attending college football games, and going to the Rose Bowl with my two kids (aged 9 and 7 at the time) was one of the best experiences of my life. We traveled to LA, went to Rodeo Drive and Beverly Hills, and saw one of the best games I've ever experienced at a stadium that was breathtaking. Got to see the Rose Parade in person and enjoy it with my family.

And going to the Peach Bowl with my then 13 year old daughter was a hell of a good time. We visited CNN and world of coca cola, and saw the MLK memorial.

I wouldn't trade that for watching a road game on TV even against a great team, if we aren't in the top four and likely don't have much chance to run the table anyway. And if we have a team good enough to be in the top four, then I can travel to a neutral site to see the game you're talking about.

Why is that tough to understand?

And why again would you not be able to do that if we were playing AT another school?
Michigan fans get seats in the Shoe, USC packs the Rosebowl against UCLA, Bulldogs and Tiger fans get seats at Bama every year

we might as well have stayed in the MWC if the goal was to get the best bowl game we could - we would be playing a lot more NY6 bowls as the best G5 with the current system

 

[Wexahu]

and I “ can” win the lottery - it just doesn’t happen

again it’s better for college football if more teams make the play offs just like it has been in EVERY other sport played on the planet

seriously show me another sport that increased inclusion in the post season and it has been detrimental for the sport?

I think the 64-team NCAA basketball tournament has been detrimental to the sport as a whole. Back in the 50's through the early 80's when the field was much smaller the game was overall more popular relative to other sports than it is today. NASCAR has basically gone back to being a very fringe sport. There are a number of reasons probably but adding the "playoffs" hasn't made it any more popular whatsoever, in fact it's gone backwards. Baseball wasn't any less popular back when you had TWO teams play off. And the Fedex Cup is basically a money-grab to try and force the top players to play more, it hasn't made the sport any more or less popular. You think if they got rid of it people would start having less interest in the Masters or US Open?

Growth and popularity of sports has way more to do with cable TV and media than has to do with expansion of playoffs. Virtually every sport makes more money now but that's practically by default. College football has been extremely popular for decades and decades. It was extremely popular before there was any kind of playoff whatsoever. That's probably as good an example as any.

 

[froginmn]

Understand your thoughts and agree about the good times traveling to bowls but, what is best for the future of college football is not necessarily what is best for you and your family, or me and mine. But why can’t there be even better times in a better, fairer system?

That's a completely fair comment. I just don't know that the system gets fairer. If you take away the CCGs, Wisconsin is out in favor of tOSU, Baylor out in favor of OU, etc. without playing that game. I think the CCGs give a way to expand the playoff as it is, and removing them in favor of a round of eight (where participants would need to be voted in) isn't likely to be more fair. And losing the experiences I've had for that doesn't seem better.

 

[froginmn]

And why again would you not be able to do that if we were playing AT another school?
Michigan fans get seats in the Shoe, USC packs the Rosebowl against UCLA, Bulldogs and Tiger fans get seats at Bama every year

we might as well have stayed in the MWC if the goal was to get the best bowl game we could - we would be playing a lot more NY6 bowls as the best G5 with the current system

Because we wouldn't know where we were going until the week before. And they'd be home games for the high seed, so we wouldn't get 25k tickets. We might get 2k, and most of us wouldn't get priority.

And the first round would be mid December, when my kids couldn't go.

 

[Dogfrog]

Because we wouldn't know where we were going until the week before. And they'd be home games for the high seed, so we wouldn't get 25k tickets. We might get 2k, and most of us wouldn't get priority.

And the first round would be mid December, when my kids couldn't go.

Understand but it can’t just be all about you, right? Can’t go to the first round? Have a TV party at home and go to the 2nd round, and the final.

Or just go to Maui and watch it.

 

[flyfishingfrog]

I think the 64-team NCAA basketball tournament has been detrimental to the sport as a whole. Back in the 50's through the early 80's when the field was much smaller the game was overall more popular relative to other sports than it is today. NASCAR has basically gone back to being a very fringe sport. There are a number of reasons probably but adding the "playoffs" hasn't made it any more popular whatsoever, in fact it's gone backwards. Baseball wasn't any less popular back when you had TWO teams play off. And the Fedex Cup is basically a money-grab to try and force the top players to play more, it hasn't made the sport any more or less popular. You think if they got rid of it people would start having less interest in the Masters or US Open?

Growth and popularity of sports has way more to do with cable TV and media than has to do with expansion of playoffs. Virtually every sport makes more money now but that's practically by default. College football has been extremely popular for decades and decades. It was extremely popular before there was any kind of playoff whatsoever. That's probably as good an example as any.

So actually you are pretty much wrong on every one of those-

college basketball had more fans attend games in t he last decade than any decade ever

NASCAR created the Chase after attendance had dropped and the chase races have crowds much larger than year end races before it and much like the fedex cup tournaments in golf - are all in the top 10 events in the sport now

fedex cup has made the regular season more relevant not less- without it no would care about any tournament but the majors - just look at colonial as an example

attendance, revenue and team values have all increase in MLB for teams that make the playoffs as wildcard teams compared with the teams that don’t- and that in a sport where attendance overall is dropping To concerning levels

World Cup grew when they expanded, College baseball grew when they expanded, ....

And why is a 4 team CFp doing so much better for the sport than the 2 team system if more doesn’t make a difference? We all know the old system of picking the two “best” via panel got the right answer most of the time anyway

 

[Wexahu]

So actually you are pretty much wrong on every one of those-

college basketball had more fans attend games in t he last decade than any decade ever

NASCAR created the Chase after attendance had dropped and the chase races have crowds much larger than year end races before it and much like the fedex cup tournaments in golf - are all in the top 10 events in the sport now

fedex cup has made the regular season more relevant not less- without it no would care about any tournament but the majors - just look at colonial as an example

attendance, revenue and team values have all increase in MLB for teams that make the playoffs as wildcard teams compared with the teams that don’t- and that in a sport where attendance overall is dropping To concerning levels

World Cup grew when they expanded, College baseball grew when they expanded, ....

And why is a 4 team CFp doing so much better for the sport than the 2 team system if more doesn’t make a difference? We all know the old system of picking the two “best” via panel got the right answer most of the time anyway

No, I'm not wrong. Yes, the Chase races have more fans than the other races. What about the other races? How are they doing? How is the sport doing as a whole?

The Colonial used to be a big deal until they started adding all the WGC and playoff events. The Byron Nelson is a shell of what it once was. That's kind of my point.

College baseball has grown because of ESPN, not because they expanded the playoffs.

As for more fans ATTENDING college basketball games I'd need to see some more information on that. Best info I could find the average D1 attendance per game has been steadily declining for 25 years. And I'm sure they are counting tickets sold, not butts in seats. There are more games played now for one thing. Lots of tricky ways to account for attendance but there is no doubt the sport is less popular now than it was in the 50's through 80's relative to other sports. It's basically a 3-week period now that the sport is front and center from a popularity standpoint.

 

[flyfishingfrog]

No, I'm not wrong. Yes, the Chase races have more fans than the other races. What about the other races? How are they doing? How is the sport doing as a whole?

The Colonial used to be a big deal until they started adding all the WGC and playoff events. The Byron Nelson is a shell of what it once was. That's kind of my point.

College baseball has grown because of ESPN, not because they expanded the playoffs.

As for more fans ATTENDING college basketball games I'd need to see some more information on that. Best info I could find the average D1 attendance per game has been steadily declining for 25 years. And I'm sure they are counting tickets sold, not butts in seats. There are more games played now for one thing. Lots of tricky ways to account for attendance but there is no doubt the sport is less popular now than it was in the 50's through 80's relative to other sports. It's basically a 3-week period now that the sport is front and center from a popularity standpoint.

Yes you actually are - again the attendance at the avg NASCAR race and non major golf tournament had dropped before they created them

both Point systems were in response to the low attendance numbers

colonial numbers were down long before the Fedex cup - Tiger not coming and the break up of the Texas swing hurt colonial
And Lord Byron passing away and a bad course is the Nelsons problem

both are only around because fedex points matter - the money title alone was not getting players to show up since most other tournaments had bigger purses

you can continue to argue against the fact that every major sport in the world disagrees with you and has not only expanded post seasons but sports globally make more money than ever before by a multiple of more than 10x - and the fact that it comes from TV or attendance or merchandise or all of it doesn’t change the fact that it has works everywhere else

have fun in your cave

 

[Hemingway]

with tulane and ucf on the back burner in case nebraska and cu don't come to their senses?

As a Florida resident, I find it amusing that my TCU/Texas friends think that UCF is some joke school when it’s the opposite. How many alumni does TCU have? How many does UCF have ? I see UCF gear all day. They have a ton of support. I know a lot great kids that have gone there. And when I go to Orlando, I have a blast. I live on the beach , but gave a job in Orlando serious consideration because there’s a ton of opportunity there. If UCF wants to join , let them, you won’t be disappointed.

 

[WhiteHispanicFrog]

As a Florida resident, I find it amusing that my TCU/Texas friends think that UCF is some joke school when it’s the opposite. How many alumni does TCU have? How many does UCF have ? I see UCF gear all day. They have a ton of support. I know a lot great kids that have gone there. And when I go to Orlando, I have a blast. I live on the beach , but gave a job in Orlando serious consideration because there’s a ton of opportunity there. If UCF wants to join , let them, you won’t be disappointed.

Are you Florida man?

 

[Big Frog II]

As a Florida resident, I find it amusing that my TCU/Texas friends think that UCF is some joke school when it’s the opposite. How many alumni does TCU have? How many does UCF have ? I see UCF gear all day. They have a ton of support. I know a lot great kids that have gone there. And when I go to Orlando, I have a blast. I live on the beach , but gave a job in Orlando serious consideration because there’s a ton of opportunity there. If UCF wants to join , let them, you won’t be disappointed.

They have huge upside. Even Del Conte thought 8-10 years ago they were a diamond in the rough.