• The KillerFrogs

Max Duggan should be our starting quarterback.

flyfishingfrog

Active Member
That would be GP. He has always gone with experience over a true Freshman at QB. I agree with you also that I don't believe this staff can coach up or prepare a QB. Cumbie can't even come up with a decent game plan to utilize our players strengths, or make in game adjustments. If Cumbie's seat wasn't warm before the season, it needs to be nearly on fire now.
actually I think GP always wants to go with the person he thinks is least likely to make a mistake that forces his defense to have to overcome dumb decisions by the offense - or worse let's the other teams D score. He thinks his D can win most battles against the other teams offense so if ours will just score a few pts we are good - the win by 1 pt mentality. But if their D is scoring, it causes his approach a problem.

Unfortunately that is probably not the best mindset in the B12 unless that person also happens to be the best option to make things really happen on offense. When that person is both, we get 10+ win years and when that person is only the lowest risk - we fight for bowl eligibility.

Would be nice to just go with the guy with the most upside in years like this one - where we could see something great for the next 4 years start with a kid like Duggan instead of just managing risk with a guy like Delton and then going through it all again next year...
 
I remember two instances both were pressured out of the pocket and had to improvise. Duggan seemed uncomfortable, fumbling the ball near the sidelines for an almost turnover. Delton was a threat to run out of the pocket, but ended up converting a first down on the run on a nice pass. I am concerned that teams with better athleticism that Ark-PB will go all out pressure on Duggan and force him to his weaknesses. Don’t want him to get pummeled right away as a freshman and lose confidence and stunt his development.

The reality is that you need multiple QBs to be ready in the college game. We have to work on the weaknesses of each and prepare both to be ready. While it’s not ideal to have a 1A and 1B starting QB, that is what is best for this team right now. That may change if the learning curve is steep for Duggan, but anointing him the full time QB is premature after one game and could even set him back potentially , IMO. Co-starters is less pressure on him and makes teams have to prepare for two styles. If he seizes the starting gig with rapid development as the season progresses, great. But the benefits of co-starters outweigh the negatives at this point.
 

Dogfrog

Active Member
actually I think GP always wants to go with the person he thinks is least likely to make a mistake that forces his defense to have to overcome dumb decisions by the offense - or worse let's the other teams D score. He thinks his D can win most battles against the other teams offense so if ours will just score a few pts we are good - the win by 1 pt mentality. But if their D is scoring, it causes his approach a problem.

Unfortunately that is probably not the best mindset in the B12 unless that person also happens to be the best option to make things really happen on offense. When that person is both, we get 10+ win years and when that person is only the lowest risk - we fight for bowl eligibility.

Would be nice to just go with the guy with the most upside in years like this one - where we could see something great for the next 4 years start with a kid like Duggan instead of just managing risk with a guy like Delton and then going through it all again next year...

Agree with this. I am not down on Delton, however. If you look at the first drive he was perfect running and throwing. Then in the red zone we call a fade to Reagor on 2nd and six. Throw was not terrible, just hate that call and hope we stop making it a staple of our offense. Just a low probability play. Then on third and goal he threw behind the receiver. So IMO he was perfect on the drive until the critical bad throw. He’s not bad. I like Duggan’s upside but didn’t like his fumble losing the grip on a pass that could be a potential disaster against a different opponent.
 

Salfrog

Tier 1
actually I think GP always wants to go with the person he thinks is least likely to make a mistake that forces his defense to have to overcome dumb decisions by the offense - or worse let's the other teams D score. He thinks his D can win most battles against the other teams offense so if ours will just score a few pts we are good - the win by 1 pt mentality. But if their D is scoring, it causes his approach a problem.

Unfortunately that is probably not the best mindset in the B12 unless that person also happens to be the best option to make things really happen on offense. When that person is both, we get 10+ win years and when that person is only the lowest risk - we fight for bowl eligibility.

Would be nice to just go with the guy with the most upside in years like this one - where we could see something great for the next 4 years start with a kid like Duggan instead of just managing risk with a guy like Delton and then going through it all again next year...

This exactly. The win by 1 point mentality was great when we were in the WAC, CUSA, and MWC and were playing against the blue bloods. Now that we are in the "click", we need to have a different approach. GP needs an offense that mirrors his defense, it attacks. Instead of just having a QB that won't make many mistakes, but can't move the offense consistently, we need a QB that can move the chains & score. Plus an OC that knows how to come up with an actual game plan, and make in game adjustments when needed.

I don't care if it's Duggan, Baldwin (now that he's cleared), Collins, or whoever. We just need someone that can move the team downfield and score in the red zone more consistently that will also keep the other teams defense guessing. Not prepare for a QB that they know is one dimensional.
 

count frogula

Full Member
This exactly. The win by 1 point mentality was great when we were in the WAC, CUSA, and MWC and were playing against the blue bloods. Now that we are in the "click", we need to have a different approach. GP needs an offense that mirrors his defense, it attacks. Instead of just having a QB that won't make many mistakes, but can't move the offense consistently, we need a QB that can move the chains & score. Plus an OC that knows how to come up with an actual game plan, and make in game adjustments when needed.

I don't care if it's Duggan, Baldwin (now that he's cleared), Collins, or whoever. We just need someone that can move the team downfield and score in the red zone more consistently that will also keep the other teams defense guessing. Not prepare for a QB that they know is one dimensional.
 

count frogula

Full Member
Duggan seems to be the guy who can go vertical and stretch the field. This keeps the defense guessing and keeps them from just putting 7 in the box every play because they can read Cumbie’s play calling like a cheap novel. I personally prefer the potential to strike from anywhere than to die a death from a thousand paper cuts running the infernal bubble screen.
 

Planks

Active Member
The reality is that you need multiple QBs to be ready in the college game. We have to work on the weaknesses of each and prepare both to be ready. While it’s not ideal to have a 1A and 1B starting QB, that is what is best for this team right now. That may change if the learning curve is steep for Duggan, but anointing him the full time QB is premature after one game and could even set him back potentially , IMO. Co-starters is less pressure on him and makes teams have to prepare for two styles. If he seizes the starting gig with rapid development as the season progresses, great. But the benefits of co-starters outweigh the negatives at this point.

I agree that we will need multiple quarterbacks this season. The problem with going with Delton is that it takes away valuable practice reps that need to be going to Collins and Baldwin. If Delton is the starter against Purdue, then that’s two weeks of practice reps that could have been going Collins and Baldwin, quarterbacks that have far superior arm talent, the type of arm talent we will need if we want to have any chance of winning games against a team like OU.

Baldwin, like Duggan, is a legit talent whose going to be a great college QB some day. I’m going to be very disappointed if Baldwin is not a factor this season because we wasted the practice reps that should have been going to Baldwin on a different quarterback that might not have the arm talent we need.
 
Last edited:
If you are objective and have an iq over 80...there isn’t even a question who the better quarterback was/is. Delton’s balls float, whereas Duggan’s Have zip.

Every single opinion here (including my own!) is a subjective opinion, based on a limited sample size, to boot. Let’s not pretend that alternate opinions are due to diminished intellectual capacity of those disagreeing. That is so stupid!
 

TX_Krötenechse

Active Member
Every single opinion here (including my own!) is a subjective opinion, based on a limited sample size, to boot. Let’s not pretend that alternate opinions are due to diminished intellectual capacity of those disagreeing. That is so stupid!
It’s not subjective. The team objectively did better with Duggan in. You can certainly quibble by bringing up dropped passes or bad play-calling or whatever, but at the end of the day, Duggan simply did more with the same personnel against the same defense.

Any argument for starting Delton going forward is based on speculation that he’ll do better in a big-game environment, some unknown non-quantifiable attributes, or the supposition that he’ll make fewer mistakes / turn the ball over less. These may all be true, or none of them may be true, but the point is that we haven’t seen any of them on the field.

Based on what we actually saw on the field, Duggan was better all-around and the offense did better all around with him at the helm.
 

4th. down

Active Member
It’s not subjective. The team objectively did better with Duggan in. You can certainly quibble by bringing up dropped passes or bad play-calling or whatever, but at the end of the day, Duggan simply did more with the same personnel against the same defense.

Any argument for starting Delton going forward is based on speculation that he’ll do better in a big-game environment, some unknown non-quantifiable attributes, or the supposition that he’ll make fewer mistakes / turn the ball over less. These may all be true, or none of them may be true, but the point is that we haven’t seen any of them on the field.

Based on what we actually saw on the field, Duggan was better all-around and the offense did better all around with him at the helm.

At the end of the day, believe that's where we are. However, I want to start Delton at Purdue and let him go the 1st. 3 series, then it's Max from then on except special run packages for Delton. I want to keep Delton around and active and mentally in the game - he's real good on the fake run and then hit his tight end on the slant but I know, we won't use that.
 

CountryFrog

Active Member
Comments about "missed passes" keep cropping up, but on two occasions that I recall where the ball was thrown to an area with no receiver one might think it was a bad rout by the receiver. Only the coaches know for sure, but usually when a QB drops back and quickly throws to an area, he is expecting someone to be there. Not making excuses, but overall the receiver play was poor, so........
That's certainly possible but he also had a couple open receivers that he air mailed by about 5 yards so however you look at it he missed some throws. It's no crime to miss a couple passes, overall he looked good and you can clearly see the arm talent. It's his first game and he's a true freshman so it's not unusual, but when you have a receiver behind the defense by 2 or 3 steps thenwe really need our QB to hit that throw 9 times out of 10. For all we know he will going forward.
 

CountryFrog

Active Member
This exactly. The win by 1 point mentality was great when we were in the WAC, CUSA, and MWC and were playing against the blue bloods. Now that we are in the "click", we need to have a different approach. GP needs an offense that mirrors his defense, it attacks. Instead of just having a QB that won't make many mistakes, but can't move the offense consistently, we need a QB that can move the chains & score. Plus an OC that knows how to come up with an actual game plan, and make in game adjustments when needed.

I don't care if it's Duggan, Baldwin (now that he's cleared), Collins, or whoever. We just need someone that can move the team downfield and score in the red zone more consistently that will also keep the other teams defense guessing. Not prepare for a QB that they know is one dimensional.
Anyone who takes GP's win by one propaganda literally is naive. GP would absolutely love to beat everyone by 50. Makes things easier for his defense and allows players to rest and stay healthy. These are all things that he openly talks about needing to do.

He has NEVER had an actual goal to only win by one point in any conference. You don't get to 82 points in a game if you truly are trying to win by one.
 

Eight

Member
That's certainly possible but he also had a couple open receivers that he air mailed by about 5 yards so however you look at it he missed some throws. It's no crime to miss a couple passes, overall he looked good and you can clearly see the arm talent. It's his first game and he's a true freshman so it's not unusual, but when you have a receiver behind the defense by 2 or 3 steps thenwe really need our QB to hit that throw 9 times out of 10. For all we know he will going forward.

when max was on target he got the ball out quickly to the receivers where they could make a play after the catch which was nice to see.

unfortunately, as you mentioned he missed badly on a few throws that he just has to do better in the future. the deep seam route where the receiver had cleared the last defender, davis in the endzone, and the mishandled snap where the receiver was wide open and max rushed the throw.

each of those is something he can improve upon and i expect with time he will, but i think this is the paradox for tcu.
 

CountryFrog

Active Member
when max was on target he got the ball out quickly to the receivers where they could make a play after the catch which was nice to see.

unfortunately, as you mentioned he missed badly on a few throws that he just has to do better in the future. the deep seam route where the receiver had cleared the last defender, davis in the endzone, and the mishandled snap where the receiver was wide open and max rushed the throw.

each of those is something he can improve upon and i expect with time he will, but i think this is the paradox for tcu.
This is absolutely the paradox with any team starting a true freshmen QB. Many people on here are very quick to point to a few teams who have had great seasons with freshmen QB's but the reality is that there are growing pains. It's just that when you're a team like Alabama and Clemson loaded with talent everywhere then a handful of missed throws and/or bad decisions by your QB each game just means you're beating people by 30 points instead of 40.

Trevor Lawrence isn't a freshman anymore but anyone who saw his first game the other night saw a kid who is still missing throws and has plenty to learn and improve on and yet it didn't hurt the Clemson team one bit. We don't have that luxury, unfortunately. We really need a QB that will be aggressive enough to force defenses to play us honestly and also avoid mistakes.

I still think Duggan is the guy to do that but it will likely come with some mistakes along the way both physically and mentally. Unless of course Baldwin (who I know absolutely nothing about) is further along and ready to get in there at some point soon.
 
It’s not subjective. The team objectively did better with Duggan in. You can certainly quibble by bringing up dropped passes or bad play-calling or whatever, but at the end of the day, Duggan simply did more with the same personnel against the same defense.

Any argument for starting Delton going forward is based on speculation that he’ll do better in a big-game environment, some unknown non-quantifiable attributes, or the supposition that he’ll make fewer mistakes / turn the ball over less. These may all be true, or none of them may be true, but the point is that we haven’t seen any of them on the field.

Based on what we actually saw on the field, Duggan was better all-around and the offense did better all around with him at the helm.

Well the post I quoted was about the perceived beauty of the passes in the air. Nothing more subjective than that. But beyond that how they did on the field is definitely up to differing opinions. There are things I thought each did better than the other. In particular, I am concerned about Duggan’s scrambling ability and ability to run the read option. Maybe he will do better but that based on speculation that he’ll do better in a big-game environment, some unknown non-quantifiable attributes, or the supposition that he’ll make fewer mistakes / turn the ball over less. These may all be true, or none of them may be true, but the point is that we haven’t seen any of them on the field.
 
Top