• The KillerFrogs

OK, so why is Montigel let go?

Thanks for this info. But it makes me wonder, what kind of "new facilities" are needed? Offices for the coach? We've got a nearby pretty good Country Club. What else do we need?
TCU is one of the few major golf programs that does not have a dedicated practice facility for their men's/women's teams. Most of these facilities include launch monitors, video, climate-controlled indoor hitting bays, putting greens with both tiff/bermuda hybrid and bentgrass surfaces, multiple bunkers and chipping greens, as well as numerous "course-like" target greens, as well as many other amenities like locker rooms, kitchens, study rooms and lounge areas. Some of them are setup up so you can play a 3-4 hole loop, where you can hit multiple balls without interrupting play on a real golf course.

And to boot, more often than not, these facilities are located on a golf course that the school either owns or controls, so access is never an issue.

Colonial, Shady Oaks and Mira Vista are all fantastic places, but the players don't have free reign at those places like players do at other schools. Because of all of the above, we are getting heavily out-recruited.

There is simply no way on earth places like Kansas and Texas Tech should ever have better golf programs than TCU. Yet here we are...

Furthermore, we are also getting out-recruited, in my opinion, because we have a coach who is primarily an administrator and a motivator. When you contrast TCU with places like Tech with Greg Sands, Baylor with Mike McGraw, and many others, you will see they have coaches that have administrative and motivational skills, but also have high-playing level and teaching skills. This is true about nearly every one of our competitors.

Bill Montigel was hired in 1987 after Bill Woodley left to go coach Arkansas (who had John Daly on their roster). Montigel was an assistant basketball coach at the time for Killingsworth, but when Killingsworth retired, Montigel had no place to go. Enter the illustrious Frank Windegger and Mel Thomas. In typical form, they back-handed the hiring of a new coach by filling it with an easy solution -- Montigel.

He had zero golf experience, but he did bring a unique way of motivating and cultivating players' minds with him. He relied heavily on his relationship with Mike Holder from Oklahoma State to form his blueprint for coaching, which was a great move on his part. His first few years were rough. But in my opinion, he succeeded way beyond anybody's expectations, and he deserves all the credit for that. Anybody inside the program back then would have bet that his tenure wouldn't last more than 3-4 years at best.

If you want to see what a truly good golf coach is like these days, I suggest you watch the special on the Stanford women's team on YouTube. I can't tell you how much more advanced and professional golf coaches are today than during the Woodley/early Montigel eras.

A Week in the Life: Stanford Women's Golf


On Edit: By the way...Bill Woodley's salary at TCU when he left -- $28,000. That ought to tell you how much emphasis TCU had on golf at the time.
 
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JogginFrog

Active Member
Thanks for this info. But it makes me wonder, what kind of "new facilities" are needed? Offices for the coach? We've got a nearby pretty good Country Club. What else do we need?
Only thing I'd add is that negotiating access to a handful of high-end golf courses is what good high school programs do.

Does a minor sport justify the cost of a dedicated facility like what @gohornedfrogs described? It does if you want to have a top-30 team. If I'm ADJD I either have a proposal that I'm shopping to major donors or I'm looking at dropping men's and women's golf. The middle ground is untenable. I hope he makes the path clear soon.
 

ticketfrog123

Active Member
Only thing I'd add is that negotiating access to a handful of high-end golf courses is what good high school programs do.

Does a minor sport justify the cost of a dedicated facility like what @gohornedfrogs described? It does if you want to have a top-30 team. If I'm ADJD I either have a proposal that I'm shopping to major donors or I'm looking at dropping men's and women's golf. The middle ground is untenable. I hope he makes the path clear soon.
Given what NIL could do to budgets and donor capacity - it’s hard to say any program won’t consider cutting a few sports. Even Stanford did for its championship wrestling team which is way less expensive than golf
 

Ron Swanson

Full Member
Thanks for this info. But it makes me wonder, what kind of "new facilities" are needed? Offices for the coach? We've got a nearby pretty good Country Club. What else do we need?
It’s all about the school having their own course. We are in a knife fight with one hand tied behind our back. Being in a place where people actually want to live (FWTX) is a negative here because property values are too high for us to buy up enough land to build a TCU golf course (very high level view of the situation).
 
Thanks for this info. But it makes me wonder, what kind of "new facilities" are needed? Offices for the coach? We've got a nearby pretty good Country Club. What else do we need?
Bama recently approved a ~$30mm golf facility. Impressive.

attachment-IGZ4MZCDBBHDVNH2FIWYBMAOZY.jpeg

"According to the proposal presented to the Board, this project would include a massive clubhouse, a practice course and a nine-hole course that can be played in multiple routes. They plan on giving the clubhouse a Georgian Revival look, along with limestone detailing and a brook veneer."

Read More: Alabama's Plan for New Golf Facility Will Blow Your Mind | https://tide1009.com/alabamas-plan-...-mind/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral
 

Eight

Member
It’s all about the school having their own course. We are in a knife fight with one hand tied behind our back. Being in a place where people actually want to live (FWTX) is a negative here because property values are too high for us to buy up enough land to build a TCU golf course (very high level view of the situation).

somewhat, texas found a way to make this happen in a fairly pricey real estate market but they also have much deeper pockets

houston found a way to do this 10 years or so back so you don't have to be cash flush
 

Putt4Purple

Active Member
The team's poor performance this year (missing the NCAA tournament after returning 4 of 5 starters from a team that was 16th in last year's NCAAs) could not have helped.

But a bigger reason may be that TCU did not land high-profile legacy recruits from the families of two prominent alumni: Charles Coody's grandsons and Connor Henry. All went to Big 12 rivals.

You can read some thoughts of those who know the situation better than I at https://forum.killerfrogs.com/index.php?threads/tcu-golf-2021-2022.228241/page-18. One poster simply said that new energy is needed.

I am hopeful that it could signal ADJD's willingness to take some action on improving facilities, because TCU has fallen way behind. (See https://www.gcmonline.com/course/environment/news/college-golf-practice-facilities and https://golfweek.usatoday.com/lists/ncaa-college-golf-best-practice-facilities/.)

My question about a coaching change has been, "What do you plan to give a new coach to recruit with?" Coach M has done as well as could be expected without a dedicated course and a top-notch practice facility that helps players prepare for various grasses and architectural styles. Hope ADJD will work to make TCU a great destination for coaches and players who expect to use college to prep to succeed as pros.

Less likely is that ADJD already has a candidate lined up, especially without some new facilities. But it has been noted that Stanford assistant coach Cole Buck is a TCU alum.
Most of this is relevant. New energy is needed. Coach M is a veteran. Old ok! To be blunt. I can understand the view of energy being needed. This to me IS the reason for change. Let him retire on his own accord.
Missing on and leaning on legacy recruits should not ever be an excuse. I don't buy that one. There are plenty of other good golfers to recruit.
My issue with your post is what else is expected as far as a "dedicated coarse and top-notch practice facility"? Is TCU supposed to build their own golf course? TCU plays and has access to Colonial Country Club. If a TCU golf coach reached out to other golf courses, I am sure they could have access to them as well. A new young coach could and should do that. I do believe they have a contract with Leonard's Golf Ranch west of Fort Worth for all their practice needs. What else would you suggest? If you're seeking a place to grow various grasses and have different architectural styles here in north Texas when its 100+ in summer and occasionally below 0. All for the sake of the TCU golf team, well I don't ever see that happening.
We live in a unique part of the USA. The land is not set up for a golfer's paradise. There are plenty of good challenging golf courses around here though. Plenty of good golfers have grown up here in north Texas and done well in their careers without supposed top-notch facilities. Go Frogs!
 
Hard to see an easy solution on building a course close enough to campus. I guess the old Lost Creek course is still for sale but at this point, it would be like starting from scratch on a layout that wasn’t anything remotely special in its heyday. I recall it being mentioned that the Nike facility next to Leonard’s was made available to buy a while back but that apparently went nowhere.
 

froginaustin

Active Member
somewhat, texas found a way to make this happen in a fairly pricey real estate market but they also have much deeper pockets

houston found a way to do this 10 years or so back so you don't have to be cash flush

UTx found a subdivision developer with a huge development (Steiner Ranch) of high end homes and some land that couldn’t be divided into otherwise very expensive lots. There was also a requirement of green space that could be satisfied by a golf course.

Austin-specific situation.
 
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Eight

Member
UTx found a subdivision developer with a huge development (Steiner Ranch) of high end homes and some land that couldn’t be divided into otherwise very expensive lots. There was also a requirement of green space that could be satisfied by a golf course.

Austin-specific situation.

thanks for the background info, as i also mentioned houston found a way to pair with someone for their course, and look at the course that got built in lubbock
 

JogginFrog

Active Member
Hard to see an easy solution on building a course close enough to campus. I guess the old Lost Creek course is still for sale but at this point, it would be like starting from scratch on a layout that wasn’t anything remotely special in its heyday. I recall it being mentioned that the Nike facility next to Leonard’s was made available to buy a while back but that apparently went nowhere.
Yep. They didn't pull the trigger on Nike. Didn't pull the trigger on Glen Garden either, which was the real opportunity IMO. Would have been a good-sized space for an expansive practice facility plus a 9-hole course with multiple routings. Some of the old holes could be preserved a part of a celebration of FW's golf heritage. Come to TCU and play every day in the space that launched Nelson & Hogan. Architects would have lined up to have their name on the redesign. Every recruit could've walked through the memorabilia room on the way in, saw & heard the words of Dan Jenkins, and imagined being part of the great FW/TCU golf tradition. Ten minutes from campus.
 

froggolf65

Active Member
Yep. They didn't pull the trigger on Nike. Didn't pull the trigger on Glen Garden either, which was the real opportunity IMO. Would have been a good-sized space for an expansive practice facility plus a 9-hole course with multiple routings. Some of the old holes could be preserved a part of a celebration of FW's golf heritage. Come to TCU and play every day in the space that launched Nelson & Hogan. Architects would have lined up to have their name on the redesign. Every recruit could've walked through the memorabilia room on the way in, saw & heard the words of Dan Jenkins, and imagined being part of the great FW/TCU golf tradition. Ten minutes from campus.
I hope this is a joke. There wouldn’t be enough security in Texas for that location.
 

Wog68

Active Member
Hard to see an easy solution on building a course close enough to campus. I guess the old Lost Creek course is still for sale but at this point, it would be like starting from scratch on a layout that wasn’t anything remotely special in its heyday. I recall it being mentioned that the Nike facility next to Leonard’s was made available to buy a while back but that apparently went nowhere.
We owned "Goat Hills" but we went and ruined it.
 

Putt4Purple

Active Member
Buy the Dog park better known as the old Z-Boaz G.C. location and start from scratch. Enough space for a top notch practice facility and a 9 hole coarse where tee boxes can be in two different locations for each hole to play differently. Lastly it would be owned by TCU and the golf team would have full access with a nice building facility. Hows that? Just throwing it out there!
 
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Brog

Full Member
When I went to tCU we had a golf course right next door to campus. I played my first nine holes of golf right there. It was called Worth Hills Golf Course, owned by the city. Then we went and bought it and ruined it by building a new campus on it. Actions have consequences, right?
 

JogginFrog

Active Member
I hope this is a joke. There wouldn’t be enough security in Texas for that location.
You could consider it a joke--or an opportunity.

I encourage you to check out Grand Canyon University's story. It embraced its location is a very sketchy section of Phoenix, bought a bunch of the real estate around campus, committed to neighborhood revitalization, developed a partnership with Habitat for Humanity, and made hundreds of millions of dollars (before and after transitioning to non-profit status) while earning a huge amount of community goodwill. https://news.gcu.edu/2020/02/operation-revival-is-working-for-neighborhood/

And, oh yeah, it involved taking over and revitalizing a poorly maintained, unprofitable golf course. The GCU course is now a money maker, hosts college tournaments like the one TCU played in this spring, and led to the creation of a golf management degree program.
 

JogginFrog

Active Member
We are talking about this place, right?

I haven't been to FW in years. Anyone know how the distillery is doing? Seems like the neighborhood has changed a lot with the development of the old Masonic Home campus, but I have no idea what the city's development plan is for the area.
 
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