• The KillerFrogs

BIG mulling no divisions and 8 game conference schedule

HG73

Active Member
Geographically the Big12 stretches across three time zones from Florida to Utah and no north/south or east/west divisions really fit. Would a no divisions arrangement fit better?

I'm definitely for the eight game conference schedule as long as the SEC only plays eight games.
 

Nick Danger

Active Member
If you really think about it, the correct answer to your questions is . . . It depends! It depends on which Playoff format you're using. If the Big 12 continues under the current four team playoff format, doing away with Divisions and playing a round-robin schedule with your top two ranked teams playing in the Conference Championship is the better option than going with Divisions. But, at some point in the future, if they go to the anticipated 12 team expanded playoff format, you'd be better off going with Divisional play, and here's why . . .

Under the current four team playoff format, the principal focus of all the Conferences (except for perhaps the SEC) is getting your conference champion into the playoffs, but if you go to the 12 team expanded playoff format, your focus completely changes. It will now become focusing on getting your second team in to the playoffs, as your best team (Conference Champion?) will be in the playoffs, no matter what, with the new AQ conference bids.

Proponents of doing away with Divisions and going with the "round-robin, two "best" teams in the championship game" idea always cite the benefit of giving your highest ranked team a boost to get them over the hump into the top four playoff slots by providing them an extra "quality win" opportunity at the end of the season by having a more compelling Championship Game. But with the expanded playoff format and the inclusion of the AQ bids, you don't really need that "quality win" anymore. so that takes away the main benefit of having your top two teams always playing in the Championship game.

What you need to do instead is to protect your Number 2 ranked team (the one you're actually trying to get into the playoff now) from suffering a late season (and unnecessary) loss that could potentially drop them out of the top 12, and therefore out of the playoffs, by forcing them into an extra hard game by playing your conference's best team every year. You would potentially protect them by having the two Division champs play in the Championship game, as opposed to always playing your two best teams.

Let's look at a very plausible scenario that highlights my point. This scenario closely mirrors what happened to the Big 10 this year, with Ohio State playing their fourth best team, Iowa, in the Championship game, instead of playing their second best team Michigan!

Let's say that the Big 12 has gone to East/West Divisions after the four new schools have joined, UT and OU have left, and the new expanded playoff format has started. The last CFP ranking has just come out the week before the Big 12 Championship game is to take place and the highest ranked Big 12 team is Cincinnati, from the Eastern Division, at #5, your second best Team, Baylor, also from the Eastern Division, is at #11, and your highest ranked team from the Western Division (Oklahoma State lets say) is at #15. If your 5th ranked team (Cincinnati) is playing your 15th ranked team (Oklahoma State) in the Championship game , instead of playing your #11 ranked team (Baylor), you're saving Baylor's #11 ranking by not having them play a 13th difficult game, which they would more often than not, lose and potentially get thrown out of the playoffs by getting them dropped back to #14 or #15!

Having a 15th ranked Oklahoma State team suffering another loss won't really hurt your conference because they were already out of the playoffs. Another loss would only make them slightly more out, whereas another, more than likely Baylor loss, would cost the conference a couple of million dollars! On the other hand, using a divisional setup in this instance could provide an additional benefit in the unlikely event of an upset, where you could potentially get, all three teams in (Cincinnati is now at #8 after the loss, Baylor still at #10 or #11, and Oklahoma State is now at #12 after the win)! But that "best case" scenario only happens with a divisional format!

But if you want to alter this scenario slightly and place your second ranked/best team (Baylor) just slightly outside the playoff range at 13th, where they could use that late season "bounce" to get into the top 12, the only way not utilizing a divisional format (round robin) would pay off is that you'd have to always hope for a more improbable "upset" to occur! Additionally, if the Big-10, ACC, and the PAC-12 all elect to do away with divisions, the #2 teams from those three conferences will probably be in the 9, 10, 11 range, and if any of those #1 vs #2 Championship games don't result in an upset, that conference has just shot themselves in the foot, and the Big-12 would benefit by not doing anything!

My basic point is this, that if you're playing the percentages to give your conference a slight edge, your chances/percentages of getting a second Big-12 team in a 12 team playoff format are better (even if only incrementally) if you're using a Divisional setup , as opposed to a round-robin setup!
 
Last edited:

froginmn

Full Member
Let's say that the Big 12 has gone to East/West Divisions after the four new schools have joined, UT and OU have left, and the new expanded playoff format has started. The last CFP ranking has just come out the week before the Big 12 Championship game is to take place and the highest ranked Big 12 team is Cincinnati, from the Eastern Division, at #5, your second best Team, Baylor, also from the Eastern Division, is at #11, and your highest ranked team from the Western Division (Oklahoma State lets say) is at #15. If your 5th ranked team is playing your 15th ranked team in the Championship game , instead of playing your #11 ranked team (Baylor), you're saving Baylor's #11 ranking by not having them play a 13th hard game, which they would more often than not, lose and potentially get thrown out of the playoffs by getting moved back to #14 or #15! Having a 15 ranked Oklahoma State team suffering another loss won't really hurt your conference because they were already out of the playoffs. Another loss would only make them slightly more out, whereas a another, more than likely Baylor loss, would cost the conference a couple of million dollars!
Whatever makes Baylor lose is the best option IMO.
 

HG73

Active Member
If you really think about it, the correct answer to your questions is . . . It depends! It depends on which Playoff format you're using. If the Big 12 continues under the current four team playoff format, doing away with Divisions and playing a round-robin schedule with your top two ranked teams playing in the Conference Championship is the better option than going with Divisions. But, at some point in the future, if they go to the anticipated 12 team expanded playoff format, you'd be better off going with Divisional play, and here's why . . .

Under the current four team playoff format, the principal focus of all the Conferences (except for perhaps the SEC) is getting your conference champion into the playoffs, but if you go to the 12 team expanded playoff format, your focus completely changes. It will now become focusing on getting your second team in to the playoffs, as your best team (Conference Champion?) will be in the playoffs, no matter what, with the new AQ conference bids.

Proponents of doing away with Divisions and going with the "round-robin, two best teams in the championship game" idea always cite the benefit of giving your highest ranked team a boost to get them over the hump into the top four playoff slots by providing them an extra "quality win" opportunity at the end of the season by having a more compelling Championship Game. But with the expanded playoff format and the inclusion of the AQ bids, you don't necessarily need that "quality win" anymore. so that takes away the main benefit of having your top two teams always playing in the Championship game.

What you need to do instead is to protect your Number 2 ranked team (the one you're actually trying to get into the playoff now) from suffering a late season loss that could potentially drop them out of the top 12, and therefore out of the playoffs, by forcing them into an extra hard game by playing your conference's best team every year. You would potentially protect them by having the two Division champs play in the Championship game, as opposed to always playing your two best teams.

Let's look at a very plausible scenario that highlights my point. This scenario closely mirrors what happened to the Big 10 this year, with Ohio State playing their fourth best team, Iowa, in the Championship game, instead of playing their second best team Michigan!

Let's say that the Big 12 has gone to East/West Divisions after the four new schools have joined, UT and OU have left, and the new expanded playoff format has started. The last CFP ranking has just come out the week before the Big 12 Championship game is to take place and the highest ranked Big 12 team is Cincinnati, from the Eastern Division, at #5, your second best Team, Baylor, also from the Eastern Division, is at #11, and your highest ranked team from the Western Division (Oklahoma State lets say) is at #15. If your 5th ranked team (Cincinnati) is playing your 15th ranked team (Oklahoma State) in the Championship game , instead of playing your #11 ranked team (Baylor), you're saving Baylor's #11 ranking by not having them play a 13th difficult game, which they would more often than not, lose and potentially get thrown out of the playoffs by getting them dropped back to #14 or #15! Having a 15th ranked Oklahoma State team suffering another loss won't really hurt your conference because they were already out of the playoffs. Another loss would only make them slightly more out, whereas another, more than likely Baylor loss, would cost the conference a couple of million dollars!

My basic point is this, that if you're playing the percentages, your chances/percentages of getting a second Big-12 team in a 12 team playoff format are better if you're using a Divisional setup , as opposed to a round-robin setup!
Couldn't have a round robin with 8 conference games and 12 conference members. Just schedule 8 conference games. Two best records play a CCG. Both teams are likely to make a 12 team playoff with decent records.
 

froginaustin

Active Member
When the B1G played 8 conference games without divisions, I think I remember a lot of howling and whining when it had 2 teams with essentially equal-- at least by identifiable metrics-- records, but the 2 top teams (a) didn't play each other, or (b) one of the two managed to miss a really tough opponent, and got the nod over the team that played the toughie.
The one of the top two that missed the plumb post-season deal, whatever that was at the time, complained. A lot.
 

Wexahu

Full Member
Must play 8 conference games and not 9. Beating each other up does us no good.
Why not play 5 conference games then? If there are 10 or more conference teams, it makes no sense to play less than 9 league games. This afraid to play games against decent teams and dodging competition stuff is stupid.

And just for the record, I couldn’t care less about CFP chances. Worrying about that is stupid too. Good, competitive games on the other hand are not stupid.
 
Last edited:

Big Frog II

Active Member
Why not play 5 conference games then? If there are 10 or more conference teams, it makes no sense to play less than 9 league games. This afraid to play games against decent teams and dodging competition stuff is stupid.

And just did the record, I couldn’t care less about CFP chances. Worrying about that is stupid too. Good, competitive games on the other hand are not stupid.
I think emulating the SEC, the ACC, and now the BIG is considering it is the way to go once the other schools join.
 

Froglaw

Full Member
I think emulating the SEC, the ACC, and now the BIG is considering it is the way to go once the other schools join.
Ridiculous not to have divisions with 12 or more teams. I creates home and home rivalries and sets up the championship game. The fact that Ohio State dominates the B1G is creating a very near sighted approach to scheduling.

Cross divisional games that change every two years only adds spice to the season.

Otherwise you’re just emulating Baylor’s scheduling of D2 schools coupled with a few conference games.
 

HG73

Active Member
Why not play 5 conference games then? If there are 10 or more conference teams, it makes no sense to play less than 9 league games. This afraid to play games against decent teams and dodging competition stuff is stupid.

And just for the record, I couldn’t care less about CFP chances. Worrying about that is stupid too. Good, competitive games on the other hand are not stupid.
Nobody's afraid to play meaningful games, just no point in playing a harder schedule than other conferences.
 

Wexahu

Full Member
Nobody's afraid to play meaningful games, just no point in playing a harder schedule than other conferences.
The Big 12 won't play a harder schedule than other leagues if they play one more league game, unless you think all conferences are of equal strength.

I think there is a concerted effort on the part of most teams, TCU included, to play as easy a schedule as possible while trying to make it appear more difficult than it is. Lower level P5 teams are like scheduling gold in the college football world.
 

asleep003

Active Member
The BIG usually have the top 3 teams in one division annually... so they need to fix that. The ACC has a nice mixture geographically... interesting. Think good, every few years, to change/mix up the division members, but protecting each teams 2-3 most coveted/regional opponents.
 

HG73

Active Member
The Big 12 won't play a harder schedule than other leagues if they play one more league game, unless you think all conferences are of equal strength.

I think there is a concerted effort on the part of most teams, TCU included, to play as easy a schedule as possible while trying to make it appear more difficult than it is. Lower level P5 teams are like scheduling gold in the college football world.
Sure they will, 9 conference games is harder than 8 and the SEC & ACC have gamed this system to their advantage for decades.
 

geefrogs

Active Member
Mulling. One of favorite words in English.

200.gif
 
Top