• The KillerFrogs

Astros cheating....

SnoSki

Full Member
I love you man. But assuming this is a thing, and not a lie, it's just not defensible. The best possible defense is "we're not the only ones doing it" and that doesn't make it right. Kinda like bagmen in CFB.
I’m not defending it. I’m saying the accusation itself is highly suspect and bordering on conspiracy theory.

Fiers and “Jomboy” the Yankee fan on twitter have plenty of reasons to be bitter towards Houston.

Rosenthal has plenty of reasons to run with the story and it’s anonymous “sources” because hey, clicks.

Again, the Astros hit better on the road in 2017 than at home. Thus you should assume they also found a way to cheat while traveling (not likely).

Assuming they did cheat, why hasn’t anyone else noticed other than “Jomboy the yankee fan” and Fiers (who was cut by houston halfway through the 2017 season and left on poor terms)? I mean, surely the opposing 1B, SP, Catcher would’ve noticed the banging on a trash can every other pitch? How about the umpires at first, home and second base?

Another thing: there are a lot more people in the dugout during a game than the players and coaches. Beat writers, bat boys, clubhouse/dugout attendants, trainers, police, team doctors, EMTs, camera operators would ALL have to be covering this up for over 2 years now or be completely stupid to not notice something as loud as a trash can being hit every other pitch during every single home game. And that’s saying nothing about all of these people in visiting cities who would also have to be in on it.

Anyone who exposed this secret would be an immediate hero to the game. Why not blow the lid off of this the very first day of this? Why wait til now?

I just find the whole accusation implausible. If they did cheat, I don’t defend that. I’m saying the accusation seems far fetched.
 

Frogenstein

Full Member
Maybe they don’t do it every game. Maybe they only do it in key games or even just in key at bats.
All the people you listed in the dugout are there at the will of the Astros. Make a stink and bye bye dugout privileges. Though I do think many a beat writer would take that risk for this story.
As for becoming the “Hero to the Game” for narking on the Astros well, good luck with that if you live in Houston.
 
I hate the Astros plenty, but to Moose's assumption, there was a tweet from I believe Ken Rosenthal stating that of the sources he talked to, the three most egregious pitch stealers were the Astros, Brewers and Rangers. So, don't talk too much crap if you're a Ranger fan to your Astros buddies. Kind of like SMU/TCU back in the day, ya we both cheated our ass off, but at least they were good at it.

Where is said tweet?
 
Oh, to be certain, nobody in College Football has ever, ever, videoed the sideline of an opposing team to study it for clues about signals and tendencies. Ever.

Why do you think many Coaches cover their mouth when calling a play? Duh...

To pretend that nobody but those naughty Astros and that especially naughty Luhnow were up to no good is ridiculous. There are many ways of "cheating" and if any team thinks it can get an edge then they will employ such methods without a second thought. The trick is figuring out how to cover the tracks. Additionally, players and Managers aren't all morons. It didn't take long for them to figure out something hinky was going on, and they changed their signals! Voila!

As to the SMU analogy, I put all blame for that on GMFP hissownself. He had to damned well know that Dykes would use his knowledge of signs, tendencies and philosophy to his advantage, and he failed to take appropriate countermeasures.

It's a totally different scheissing game, numbnuts!
 

Hoosierfrog

Tier 1
Hitting when you know what pitch is coming is easier than if you don’t know what pitch is coming. Do you Agree? Simple question.

Sure, I suppose. I never could hit a curve ball if they announced it on the PA, but I wasn’t getting paid to. My only point is that some people are saying cheating the old way is okay, cheating with technology is massively worse. I’m just saying if one is wrong, they are both wrong.
 

satis1103

DAOTONPYH EHT LIAH LLA
Sure, I suppose. I never could hit a curve ball if they announced it on the PA, but I wasn’t getting paid to. My only point is that some people are saying cheating the old way is okay, cheating with technology is massively worse. I’m just saying if one is wrong, they are both wrong.
It is massively worse. Technology can do things that the human being would not be capable of. Human cheating is self-limiting - an inexact science prone to being tricked. But tech-assisted cheating is almost limitless especially with creative minds and big budgets.
 

Hoosierfrog

Tier 1
It is massively worse. Technology can do things that the human being would not be capable of. Human cheating is self-limiting - an inexact science prone to being tricked. But tech-assisted cheating is almost limitless especially with creative minds and big budgets.

Human cheating is still, in your own words, cheating!
 

Hoosierfrog

Tier 1
To be fair I did use quotations when saying that earlier. I don't think an unaided effort to try to see a sign or two is either A. Cheating or B. Particularly effective over time.

either way, if you know what’s coming you get the same advantage whether eyeballs or cameras.
 

satis1103

DAOTONPYH EHT LIAH LLA
either way, if you know what’s coming you get the same advantage whether eyeballs or cameras.
You can argue that you get some advantage, but it's not equal advantage. The difficulty of trying to see, then communicate, without electronic help - that limits your abilities. It's mostly a speed of communication thing.
 

frogs9497

Full Member
Looking at the 2017 batting splits during the regular season....

The Astros had higher team average, hits, 2b, 3b, HR, RBI, OBP and SLG on the road versus at home.
 

Hoosierfrog

Tier 1
Looking at the 2017 batting splits during the regular season....

The Astros had higher team average, hits, 2b, 3b, HR, RBI, OBP and SLG on the road versus at home.

How do they rank among every other team home and away? Just wondering how many teams hit better on the road...
 

Hoosierfrog

Tier 1
You can argue that you get some advantage, but it's not equal advantage. The difficulty of trying to see, then communicate, without electronic help - that limits your abilities. It's mostly a speed of communication thing.

Now we are splitting hairs. I maintain, if one way is wrong they are both wrong.
 

MTfrog5

Active Member
Looking at the 2017 batting splits during the regular season....

The Astros had higher team average, hits, 2b, 3b, HR, RBI, OBP and SLG on the road versus at home.
So I guess they didn’t need to cheat at home. You just going to ignore those postseason numbers I posted though I’m sure.
 

frogs9497

Full Member
So I guess they didn’t need to cheat at home. You just going to ignore those postseason numbers I posted though I’m sure.

I wasn't making an argument, only an observation. However, I consider using a camera cheating regardless of what the stats show.
 

froginmn

Full Member
Human cheating is still, in your own words, cheating!
Surely you recognize the comparative difference between figuring out the sideline signs in football and hacking into a team's computer network to steal the playbook.

Both cheating but nowhere near the same.

Stealing signs from second base is inexact, using a camera is much more efficient and precise.

And just the fact that MLB is investigating tells you that this is more than gamesmanship.
 

tetonfrog

Active Member
There may be something to all the Astros' cheating whisperings. But do you believe Carlos Beltran or Mike Fiers?

Beltran, who was just hired as the Mets manager, said the Astros were trying to steal signs from second base but not electronically. If he is proven wrong, the Mets can fire him with cause and his managing career is over before it starts.

Fiers, who was nontendered after the 2017 season by Houston, said they cheated electronically. He admits he has bad feelings towards Houston and believes they cost him millions in the ensuing free agency.

I am more worried about losing the Reid and Nolan Ryan than I am about this scandal. I am sure guys like Altuve, Springer and Beltran would look for any edge (see Game 5 of the Tampa Bay series when the Rays starter tipped his pitches) but I am skeptical of them going that far. I could be very wrong. We will see.
 
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