Bunt, bunt, bunt, bunt, bunt, bunt...........

[Spike]

QUOTE(Duquesne Frog @ Jun 21 2010, 06:51 PM) [snapback]584926[/snapback]
Disagree. If that were true, then there would be no such thing as a two-minute offense in football ... by that logic your should be playing the last two minutes exactly the same way as you do the first. As time (outs, in baseball) elapse during a game, those outs become more valuable. That's why you use your best relief pitcher in the 9th and not in the 6th when you take your starter out.


We've seen Schloss bring his best reliever in early, then move him to the outfield.

 

[Longfrog]

QUOTE(NewfoundlandFrog @ Jun 21 2010, 01:55 PM) [snapback]585027[/snapback]
Two things: That article actually shows (that darned Markov again!) that bunting isn't the "bad" thing that the ERT tables show. Basically, people using only the ERT tables note that the "conceded" out puts the team in a less good situation than if an unconceded out had not in fact occurred. This is the problem to my mind with using only ERTs as it neglects that most of the time the unconceded out does in fact occur. Or worse. Going Markov and modeling on a play-by-play basis may still show bunts are bad, but that is the only way to really go to my mind, mathematically.

Second, I would also make the point that always using one strategy or the other actually allows the defense to adapt and you shouldn't do that, statistically speaking. "Always" is probably a bad word. The "slap" can be deadly, sometimes when a bunt is expected, for example.


What the table shows is that bunts can be beneficial in certain situations (namely, when you have a crappy hitter up). Problem is, TCU has a lineup full of good hitters. The funny thing is, the author uses real data in his sample, but he doesn't have any instances of a cleanup hitter bunting and apparently limited data on a #3 hitter bunting. It just shows what an unorthodox decision it was to bunt with Coats in the first inning.

 

[TopFrog]

QUOTE(Longfrog @ Jun 21 2010, 02:22 PM) [snapback]585000[/snapback]
I should have mentioned, this is for pro ball. You made the point that college hitters are not as good situationally, which seems reasonable. So maybe the difference is less, but I wouldn't think it would be that much less.


Good grief. Did you just watching TCU baseball this weekend?

All of TCU batters are good bunters, execute very well, and they also hit for good average.

What Schloss does is a philosophy employed by many managers. There are arguments for and against it, just like a lot of TCU's baserunning moves (double steals, delayed steals etc.) They don't always work. Just like swinging away with two on and no out, grounding into a double play and not scoring.

And yes, we were trying to tack on an extra run by bunting in the 7th and 8th. That's baseball.

What TCU does works for TCU. Obviously. When Schloss is putting up mediocre years like we once enjoyed around here, then I guess we can consider your conventional baseball wisdom.

 

[Longfrog]

QUOTE(TopFrog @ Jun 21 2010, 05:50 PM) [snapback]585180[/snapback]
Good grief. Did you just watching TCU baseball this weekend?

All of TCU batters are good bunters, execute very well, and they also hit for good average.

What Schloss does is a philosophy employed by many managers. There are arguments for and against it, just like a lot of TCU's baserunning moves (double steals, delayed steals etc.) They don't always work. Just like swinging away with two on and no out, grounding into a double play and not scoring.

And yes, we were trying to tack on an extra run by bunting in the 7th and 8th. That's baseball.

What TCU does works for TCU. Obviously. When Schloss is putting up mediocre years like we once enjoyed around here, then I guess we can consider your conventional baseball wisdom.


None of this makes any sense.

You say TCU's hitters are good bunters and good hitters... all the more reason to let them swing away!

You say it's a philosophy employed by many managers. This could only be true at the college level since no pro managers do it. Arizona State has 23 sac hits compared to TCU's 57. If we're just going by results, well, they're the #1 seed and have a great baseball history. The fact that TCU is in the CWS doesn't prove that bunting is the best strategy. You can win playing either style because an extra bunt or two per game doesn't usually affect the outcome, but all the data suggests that bunting reduces your chances of winning ever-so-slightly.

I don't have a problem with stealing bases or hitting-and-running. I have a problem with bunting one of your best hitters in the first inning.

And I have watched plenty of TCU baseball and a whole lot of pro ball. And the fact that you don't get this shows that you haven't followed the sport and the way it's developed over the last decade closely enough.

 

[TopFrog]

QUOTE(Longfrog @ Jun 21 2010, 07:12 PM) [snapback]585192[/snapback]
None of this makes any sense.

You say TCU's hitters are good bunters and good hitters... all the more reason to let them swing away!

You say it's a philosophy employed by many managers. This could only be true at the college level since no pro managers do it. Arizona State has 23 sac hits compared to TCU's 57. If we're just going by results, well, they're the #1 seed and have a great baseball history. The fact that TCU is in the CWS doesn't prove that bunting is the best strategy. You can win playing either style because an extra bunt or two per game doesn't usually affect the outcome, but all the data suggests that bunting reduces your chances of winning ever-so-slightly.

I don't have a problem with stealing bases or hitting-and-running. I have a problem with bunting one of your best hitters in the first inning.

And I have watched plenty of TCU baseball and a whole lot of pro ball. And the fact that you don't get this shows that you haven't followed the sport and the way it's developed over the last decade closely enough.

Apparently you haven't watched must TCU baseball to all of a sudden be on here complaining about bunting in the first inning.

Quit trying to compare the pro game to college. And bunting is still used a lot in the NL. It's a lost art and I'm glad we have it in our bag. We are good at it.

I don't like the bunting we do sometimes, but it usually works, and I'm a results guy. And apparently unlike you and FBB I understand why he employs it. Just like Wash did Sunday afternoon.

Not even sure why you're bitching since when the count went to Coats' favor they took off the bunt, knew what was coming and roped it down the line. Good baseball in my book.

Fortunately we have Schloss leading the program. Stick to your data. I'll stick to results.

 

[robbroyy]

QUOTE(TopFrog @ Jun 21 2010, 07:30 PM) [snapback]585207[/snapback]
Apparently you haven't watched must TCU baseball to all of a sudden be on here complaining about bunting in the first inning.

Quit trying to compare the pro game to college. And bunting is still used a lot in the NL. It's a lost art and I'm glad we have it in our bag. We are good at it.

I don't like the bunting we do sometimes, but it usually works, and I'm a results guy. And apparently unlike you and FBB I understand why he employs it. Just like Wash did Sunday afternoon.

Not even sure why you're bitching since when the count went to Coats' favor they took off the bunt, knew what was coming and roped it down the line. Good baseball in my book.

Fortunately we have Schloss leading the program. Stick to your data. I'll stick to results.


No one complains that Augie does it down in Austin. The Horns set a CWS record last year with 7 sacriices in game 1. They made it to the championship series last year.

Before anyone says "How'd that work for them this year?" The sacrifice only works if you have people on. Purke and Winkler didn't allow that.

 

[Longfrog]

QUOTE(TopFrog @ Jun 21 2010, 06:30 PM) [snapback]585207[/snapback]
Fortunately we have Schloss leading the program. Stick to your data. I'll stick to results.


Well you sound like a real tough guy. I'm sorry to tick you off. :biggrin:

 

[Longfrog]

QUOTE(robbroyy @ Jun 21 2010, 06:59 PM) [snapback]585220[/snapback]
No one complains that Augie does it down in Austin. The Horns set a CWS record last year with 7 sacriices in game 1. They made it to the championship series last year.

Before anyone says "How'd that work for them this year?" The sacrifice only works if you have people on. Purke and Winkler didn't allow that.


Why stop there. I think once Schloss gets a few DUI's under his belt he'll really be on his way.

 

[Deep Purple]

QUOTE(OmniscienceFrog @ Jun 21 2010, 03:21 AM) [snapback]584610[/snapback]
Deep, I think if you'll look back through the records you will find that the Astros have won exactly one pennant ever, and it was not during the 70's through 90's.

I assume you're referring strictly to the league pennant. The Astros won divisional pennants in 1980, 1981, 1986, 1997, 1998, and 1999.

See here.

"The pennant refers to baseball's division winners and the champions of the two leagues--American and National--that constitute Major League Baseball. Though overshadowed by the World Series, they are still a huge honor, and many of baseball's most exciting moments have come in pursuit of the pennant."

Teams on both leagues routinely display their divisional pennants in their stadiums.

 

[MO Frogs]

QUOTE(Longfrog @ Jun 22 2010, 01:50 AM) [snapback]585262[/snapback]
Well you sound like a real tough guy. I'm sorry to tick you off. :biggrin:



Is this guy a Troll? Only 106 posts and I think 1/2 of them have been in this thread? Now he's talking smack to Top!

 

[OmniscienceFrog]

QUOTE(Deep Purple @ Jun 22 2010, 12:06 AM) [snapback]585597[/snapback]
I assume you're referring strictly to the league pennant. The Astros won divisional pennants in 1980, 1981, 1986, 1997, 1998, and 1999.

See here.

"The pennant refers to baseball's division winners and the champions of the two leagues--American and National--that constitute Major League Baseball. Though overshadowed by the World Series, they are still a huge honor, and many of baseball's most exciting moments have come in pursuit of the pennant."

Teams on both leagues routinely display their divisional pennants in their stadiums.


I don't much care what Robert Vaux and eHow has to say on the matter, anybody that knows baseball recognizes only the league champion as the "pennant winner", and the Democratic Underground understands it too.

MissMillie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Oct-01-07 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
11. no

to win the pennant you have to win in either the ALCS or the NLCS.


See, even MissMillie knows that.

 

[Deep Purple]

QUOTE(OmniscienceFrog @ Jun 22 2010, 12:31 AM) [snapback]585606[/snapback]
I don't much care what Robert Vaux and eHow has to say on the matter, anybody that knows baseball recognizes only the league champion as the "pennant winner", and the Democratic Underground understands it too.

MissMillie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Oct-01-07 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
11. no

to win the pennant you have to win in either the ALCS or the NLCS.
See, even MissMillie knows that.

MissMillie's opinion aside, minorleaguebaseball.com considers a divisional title a pennant ("Braves Clinch East Division Pennant With Win"). And according to Yahoo.com, quite a few people who know baseball recognize that pennants are awarded for both divisional and league championships:

"Since each team is given a pennant that achieves any of the goals, it all is defined as a pennant race. These pennants are the ones that hang in the ballpark. They represent the highest level that team reached in that season.

"For example, if the Phillies win the Wild Card, and the National League, they will hang a pennant that says "2008 National League Champions". However, if they win only the Wild Card, it says "2008 National League Wild Card Champions". Same goes for "2008 National League Eastern Division Champions" and so on.

"Last year it was:

"Boston - "2007 World Champions"
NYY - "2007 Wild Card Champions"
LAA - "2007 American League Western Division Champions"
Cleveland - "2007 American League Central Division Champions"

"Philadelphia - "2007 National League Eastern Division Champions"
CHC - "2007 National League Central Division Champions"
Arizona - "2007 National League Western Division Champions"
Colorado - "2007 National League Champions""

Since MissMillie has such a restrictive definition of "pennant," perhaps she should e-mail all those Major League and Minor League teams that have divisional pennants hanging in their stadiums, inform them that those aren't true pennants, and ask that they be taken down. I'm sure they'll comply, since she's a person who knows baseball.

 

[TopFrog]

QUOTE(robbroyy @ Jun 21 2010, 07:59 PM) [snapback]585220[/snapback]
No one complains that Augie does it down in Austin. The Horns set a CWS record last year with 7 sacriices in game 1. They made it to the championship series last year.

Before anyone says "How'd that work for them this year?" The sacrifice only works if you have people on. Purke and Winkler didn't allow that.


TCU has a team that can hit, smash, bunt, steal ... they can put pressure on pitchers and defenses in many ways. Dugout Frog, I mean Longfrog, wants to act like all TCU does is bunt while continuing his efforts to bash Schloss and the program.

The problem is when you come up against a pitcher like Cole last night and Jungmann in Texas when they are on top of their game ...

 

[TopFrog]

QUOTE(Longfrog @ Jun 21 2010, 08:50 PM) [snapback]585262[/snapback]
Well you sound like a real tough guy. I'm sorry to tick you off. :biggrin:


There was no threat, unless my post somehow scared you.

Meanwhile, you come across like an idiot, much like Dugout Frog, who has chosen to crawl out from under his "Schloss Ruined My Dreams" rock to belittle the coach and program.

Too bad for Chad ...

 

[TopFrog]

QUOTE(Longfrog @ Jun 21 2010, 08:52 PM) [snapback]585264[/snapback]
Why stop there. I think once Schloss gets a few DUI's under his belt he'll really be on his way.


Wow ... that was a really intelligent response ...

Still can't stand TCU's rise and success, eh Dugout?

 

[Longfrog]

Fine, fine, you guys win. Obviously the dozen or so other people who have chimed in on this thread to agree that TCU bunts too much are not foolish enough to try to defend that claim. So I will concede. I really am an idiot and a troll who doesn't know the first thing about baseball. But mostly I'm tired of this argument. Everything that could be said has. Just do me a favor. Let me know how many posts I need before I can actually stand up for myself.

 

[PurpleBlood87]

QUOTE(Longfrog @ Jun 22 2010, 08:00 AM) [snapback]585655[/snapback]
Fine, fine, you guys win. Obviously the dozen or so other people who have chimed in on this thread to agree that TCU bunts too much are not foolish enough to try to defend that claim. So I will concede. I really am an idiot and a troll who doesn't know the first thing about baseball. But mostly I'm tired of this argument. Everything that could be said has. Just do me a favor. Let me know how many posts I need before I can actually stand up for myself.

Yep TCU has just won 52 games this season using that strategy.

 

[neo926]

QUOTE(Longfrog @ Jun 22 2010, 08:00 AM) [snapback]585655[/snapback]
Fine, fine, you guys win. Obviously the dozen or so other people who have chimed in on this thread to agree that TCU bunts too much are not foolish enough to try to defend that claim. So I will concede. I really am an idiot and a troll who doesn't know the first thing about baseball. But mostly I'm tired of this argument. Everything that could be said has. Just do me a favor. Let me know how many posts I need before I can actually stand up for myself.

At the rate you're going, I'd say about 10,000 or so.

 

[Delmonico]

QUOTE(Longfrog @ Jun 22 2010, 08:00 AM) [snapback]585655[/snapback]
Let me know how many posts I need before I can actually stand up for myself.



1 post.


The relevant question becomes how good you are at it.........

 

[Longfrog]

QUOTE(Mike M. @ Jun 22 2010, 07:32 AM) [snapback]585665[/snapback]
At the rate you're going, I'd say about 10,000 or so.



QUOTE(RSF @ Jun 22 2010, 07:38 AM) [snapback]585670[/snapback]
1 post.


The relevant question becomes how good you are at it.........


Hmm, getting some mixed signals here.

We can agree on one thing, I am obviously very poor at defending myself. My mistake was underestimating certain people's deeply held belief in bunting. I honestly had no idea. See, common ground!